D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Cadence]

It depends on what you're trying to simulate. Want dragons that can be challenged by half a dozen heroes but not by a thousand archers and (see above) a suicidal dragon? That would require a different to the game. Doesn't make D&D less of a sim, it just doesn't meet your personal criteria.

Also easy enough to fix wit a house rule if it's what you want.

I wonder what the minor changes are that could fix it so that it is harder for commoners but doesn't really impact appropriately leveled adventurers. Resistance to non-magical attacks? x% chance of deflecting missile weapons when flying? Damage reduction? etc...

 

[AlViking]

I wonder what the minor changes are that could fix it so that it is harder for commoners but doesn't really impact appropriately leveled adventurers. Resistance to non-magical attacks? x% chance of deflecting missile weapons when flying? Damage reduction? etc...

I would have something like DR 10, negated by adamantine arrows.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I wonder what the minor changes are that could fix it so that it is harder for commoners but doesn't really impact appropriately leveled adventurers. Resistance to non-magical attacks? x% chance of deflecting missile weapons when flying? Damage reduction? etc...

maybe it could require a PB threshold similar to how some old edition monsters had a certain level of +X weapon to hit,

like 'if you don't have a proficiency bonus of +4 then all attacks/spells/ect have disadvantage to hit this monster'

even if the threshold was one behind the expect PB of the adventurers to fight it it'd still catch everything from the NPCs it was designed to catch, stray cats, kids in trees throwing rocks and commoners with bows.

 

[Maxperson]

But, that's the point. While the mechanics might be different, it plays out exactly the same.

It doesn't. 1 hit point of damage won't kill very many commoners. 1 hit point of damage kills every minion. A ten year old commoner with a single rock will rarely kill another commoner. A ten year old commoner with a rock will kill 1 in 20 minions. A 9th level magic missile will fail to kill most of the 11 different commoners it hits. A 9th level magic missile will kill all 11 minions hit.

 

[Maxperson]

If you set up hypothetical situations and have suicidal dragons it doesn't really prove anything. Focused fire from enough enemies is effective but not really a design concern.

Maybe in a bit I'll write up what I think a dragon would do.

The point isn't suicidal dragons. The point is that the dragon facing X commoners with longbows either doesn't attack, attacks and does a bit of damage before running away, or it attacks for multiple rounds and dies.

Commoners with longbows should not be able to keep an ancient dragon from attacking their town or force it to flee. And as you say, the dragon won't be suicidal, so a continued attack isn't happening.

 

[Maxperson]

A bit cherry picking don't you think? That's the absolute biggest dragon in the game.

An Ancient Black dragon is the end boss in a 4th level AD&D module - the first Dragonlance module. And the party absolutely obliterates it even with the magical item help.

The party only obliterates with that magic items help. Without it they're sludge. The opening breath attack will hit 2 or 3 of them since they don't have novel plot armor like in the books, and that will kill those 2 or 3 whether they save or not.

As for simulation being poor in D&D, that's part of why 3e did it better. Those 100 commoners with longbows are doing pretty much 0 damage to young adult or older dragon attackers. And no damage at all against mature adult or older dragons.

 

[Maxperson]

If they are commoners they would not be proficient with crossbows and would need a 19 to hit

A light crossbow is a simple weapon, so yes commoners are proficient.

"Your race, class, and feats can grant you proficiency with certain weapons or categories of weapons. The two categories are simple and martial. Most people can use simple weapons with proficiency. These weapons include clubs, maces, and other weapons often found in the hands of commoners."

I am not sure they are supposed to be terrifying any more. They took away their fear ability in the 2024 rules and if they still had that this would be a much easier fight for them.

They removed dragon fear?!

 

[Maxperson]

Right. So the 150 peasants (which used to be 50) are all out in a field waiting for the dragon. Why on earth would the dragon fly into position to be targeted by all of them?

I don't disagree with the math of your hypothetical, I don't see why it matters.

The number keeps shifting because we haven't bothered to do the math again. We know that 1) the math does check out with commoners, and 2) that isn't the point.

The point is that all it takes is a village to hit 1000 commoners, which can generate the number needed to kill the dragon mathematically. Not even a town or city. A village! Should a dragon have to be so deathly afraid of attacking villages that it is forced to alter its tactics to account for the village commoners so it doesn't die? I very strongly believe that should be a no.

Even white dragons should have no fear of a village and be able to take it out if it attacks.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm wondering where morale rolls show up. The plots of a lot of westerns and gangster movies would be a lot different if the commoners would risk the death of some of them in order to save the rest.

It shows up in 1e and 2e.

But again, morale isn't the point here. The point is that it shouldn't even be mathematically possible for village commoners to kill even an adult dragon, let alone an ancient one.

 

[Maxperson]

Hypothetical: 1 Dragon vs 100 peasants (commoners)

First, the idea that dragons would not be unstoppable killing machines for NPCs was a design choice. I remember an article long ago talking about this, that cities should be able to defend themselves. If the cities couldn't dragons would rule the world which for most campaigns they do not.

But lets say you had a village threatened by a dragon. Present <whatever dragons want> or you die. So the villagers wait outside the village in a field slings at the ready and wait for the dragon. What happens next?

I'll use an adult red dragon because in 5e they don't have their fear aura. They do have an AC of 19, 256 HP. They also have above average human intelligence (16) and wisdom (13). In addition to their 30 foot cone breath they can also cast fireball once a day (range 120 feet) and scorching ray once per turn as a legendary action (range 120 feet).

In the other corner we have peasants +2 to attack, no damage bonus using slings (range 30/120), damage 1d4. They only have a 10% chance to hit, half of those hits if the attack is done within 30 feet so 2.5 damage for a regular hit, 5 for a crit, average for 3.25 damage on average per peasant with crits. It's .25 if the dragon has cover (see below). Long range is a bit iffy because they'll have disadvantage and I'm not sure how to calculate that so I'm just going to cut that down to 1.6 per peasant. I'll call it .05 if the dragon has cover and it's long distance (again, not sure how to calculate that).

Assuming completely empty field, no cover, all peasants 5 feet apart in a 10x10 grid. To benefit the commoners I'll assume they see the dragon coming and win initiative. I'm also going to do this as much as possible by strict rules interpretation, for example I'm not sure the back rows would even be able to hit the dragon if the dragon is on the ground simply because of all the people in the way.

Options
#1) Suicidal dragon
Continuously fly over the enemy giving them clear shots every single round.

Round 1:
Commoners: Because the dragon is cooperating with the commoners and always within 30 feet we get 325 damage. Yep, this is one suicidal dragon. There are old dragons, there are bold dragons, there are no old, bold dragons.

It shouldn't be suicidal in the first place.

#2) Stupid dragon
Fly straight at the peasant formation, land and breath fire at the edge.

Round 1:
Commoners: those within 30 feet do 3.25 damage each so for simplicity I'll say the first 5 rows are within 30 feet and those in reach of the dragon are attacking with clubs which also do 1d4 damage. Problem is, only the front row has a clear shot, the dragon has partial cover after that from the people in front of them. So we have 10x3.25 + 40x0.1 = 36 damage the first round.
Dragon: The dragon breaths fire taking out 38 peasants.

Round 2:
Commoners: Peasants rush up, some of them pulling clubs to attack. They also change formation a bit but these are not trained soldirs. For simplicity I'll say everyone can now hit, but still only have 10 that can attack without cover. So 10 front row and 52 attacking dragon with cover for 10x3.25 + 52x0.1 = 37.7 rounded up to 38. Dragon is now down to 174 HP.
Dragon: fireball takes out 40 more peasants, they're now down to 22 commoners.

Round 3:
Do we really care? There's no way the commoners can win.

It's only stupid if the commoners can in fact kill the dragon, and the dragon should be deathly afraid of the commoners, but isn't.

#3) Why the heck would the dragon attack them?
The dragon ignores the formation, goes and burns down half their village because all the commoners are in a field not protecting their village. Better pay up or the rest burns.

It should be able to just take it all and leave. It uses these tactics because it's deathly afraid of commoners with bows.

#4) Attack at night
If these are humans, just wait for cover of darkness. The dragon has 120 foot darkvision, just fly around blasting breath weapon. If these are any other race and have 60 foot darkvision, it's a little trickier but unless the dragon is suicidal they still win. They could always just use their scorching ray from just outside the NPC's visual range. It's going to take a while but eventually the commoners will lose.

It uses these tactics because it's death afraid of commoners with bows.

#5) Tactical dragon
Fly overhead out of the reach of the weapons and drop stuff on the peasants. They're huge with a 27 strength they an carry 1,620 pounds before they become encumbered. Pick up trees, set them on fire, drop on defenders. One of my favorite tactics for massed troops.

Again, this is because the dragon is terrified of attacking the commoners with its strength.

Dragon fear should mean the fear it causes, not the fear it feels when facing farmers.