D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[clearstream]

I'd say it's more a catch-all term intended to include undead, constructs, and the like which aren't "killed" on losing their one hit point as they're not alive to begin with. Having to say "killed or destroyed" every time would get awkward.

Together with @Maxperson's excerpt from DMG text this seems like a fair reading to me, i.e. destroyed is synonymous with killed but broadened as you say to account for things that aren't alive in the first place. Thus

A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage.​

​

includes​

​

A minion is killed when it takes any amount of damage.​

 

[Hussar]

As I pointed out above, there is language in the 4e DMG that shows that destroyed and killed are interchangeable.

Is this meant to argue with me? If they are interchangeable, then the rules for PC's not killing something would be in force.

 

[Hussar]

Responding on the narrow point of specific overriding general. I agree that 4e applies that principle to resolve rules conflicts (see PHB 11) but it is the minions mechanic that would be the more narrow. "Knocking Creatures Unconscious" applies to all categories of creatures. Minion is one category of creature.

The principle only needs appealing to if the rules are in conflict. Being destroyed prevents minions ever having their hit points reduce to 0 or fewer. So they never qualify for being knocked unconscious.


DMs don't normally bother with death saves for any sort of foe in 4e (e.g. PHB 295)

Monsters and characters controlled by the Dungeon Master usually die when they reach 0 hit points, unless you choose to knock them out (see “Knocking Creatures Unconscious”). You generally don’t need to stalk around the battlefield after a fight, making sure all your foes are dead.​

​

If that was all that was meant, there would be no need for the specific text in the minions mechanic.

Again, that is wrong. A minion is only "destroyed" AFTER it's HP are reduced to zero. There is no other way to "destroy" a minion. Thus the PC's would always have the choice of killing a minion or not. There is nothing in the description of minions that contradicts the point that the PC can ALWAYS choose to kill or not.

 

[Hussar]

Ahh, edition warring. How I missed thee. @clearstream, feel free to have to last word because this level of sophistry is just beyond me.

 

[clearstream]

If they are interchangeable, then the rules for PC's not killing something would be in force.

Albeit the Minion specific overrules the Knocking Creatures Unconscious general.

If it were simply that dealing one or more damage reduces a minion to 0 hit points or less allowing Knocking Creatures Unconscious to apply, there would be no reason for the designers to specify that minions are destroyed/killed by any amount of damage; the rules would entail that without anything further. The presence of the specific text establishes it as an exception.

 

[AlViking]

It now puts into new light the 1st-level 2e Mage with 3 hp being taken out by a mere housecat! Obviously, the ability of housecats to mow down Wizards in a single combat round is a conspiracy by TSR to further a colonialist narrative! Or something.

I have rare documentary footage of a sneak attack by one of the savage beasts taking out a young girl. Caution, not for the feint of heart!

Spoiler: Dangerous beast

 

[AlViking]

Your character has 50 HP. He takes 5 points of damage. What happened? Same character takes 49 points of damage. What happened?

In the first case they're a bit tired, perhaps strained. The second they're reeling but still in a fight. Not much different than how you would model a boxing match, some hits hurt but don't knock you out but they do wear you down so that the next hit is a KO.

What narrative can you give for either effect that cannot be used interchangeably with the other damage? For something to be diegetic, it has to be actually seen by the characters in the world. Losing HP is not actually seen in the game world. Unless you are envisioning some sort of Final Fantasy scene where numbers pop out of target's heads, HP are not diegetic at all.

Heck, if they were diegetic then they wouldn't be abstractions. A character walks across the room. This is diegetic. Everyone can see the character walk across the room. Character loses 5 HP. None of the characters has any idea how that happened until you rewind time and add a narrative that didn't exist before the HP loss. It is not diegetic.

Good grief, not this again. From Merriam-Webster.com

Diegetic: "especially : existing or occurring within the world of a narrative rather than as something external to that world"

Diegetic does not mean you have detailed explanations.

 

[Bae'zel]

In our groups, HP is "diegetic" to the PCs. For us, it all makes more sense if HP is, in fact, "meat points". The difference is what would have been a devastating, disembowelling cut on an inexperienced novice is just a slight cut on a higher level adventurer.

So to us, AC is not wholly "diegetic" as it is a combination of luck, active dodging and parrying along with natural toughness and armor deflection.

In a game like D&D without called shots, when a player tells me "I aim for his weakspot / face / neck / arm pit / groin" I explain that the attack roll ALWAYS assumes that the PCs are trying their best to wound opponents in these areas. It only "really" connects when the damage is enough to take the opponent out of action ("ooh after a few attempts to smash the orc in the face, your mace finally connects and smashes its face in, zero HP, it's dead").

It works for us so far and helps to rationalize how poison, disease and "cure wounds" work if AC and HP really is just luck and damage avoidance (eg, if HP is abstract luck and damage avoidance, then why is my character suffering the poisoned condition? I've lost some HP, but those aren't wounds, why is the spell called cure 'wounds'?").

 

[clearstream]

In our groups, HP is "diegetic" to the PCs. For us, it all makes more sense if HP is, in fact, "meat points". The difference is what would have been a devastating, disembowelling cut on an inexperienced novice is just a slight cut on a higher level adventurer.

So to us, AC is not wholly "diegetic" as it is a combination of luck, active dodging and parrying along with natural toughness and armor deflection.

In a game like D&D without called shots, when a player tells me "I aim for his weakspot / face / neck / arm pit / groin" I explain that the attack roll ALWAYS assumes that the PCs are trying their best to wound opponents in these areas. It only "really" connects when the damage is enough to take the opponent out of action ("ooh after a few attempts to smash the orc in the face, your mace finally connects and smashes its face in, zero HP, it's dead").

It works for us so far and helps to rationalize how poison, disease and "cure wounds" work if AC and HP really is just luck and damage avoidance (eg, if HP is abstract luck and damage avoidance, then why is my character suffering the poisoned condition? I've lost some HP, but those aren't wounds, why is the spell called cure 'wounds'?").

One additional thought is that in 5e and 4e above half hit points is un-bloodied. So "meat points" as you call them can be the hit points from half and below.

 

[Maxperson]

Responding on the narrow point of specific overriding general. I agree that 4e applies that principle to resolve rules conflicts (see PHB 11) but it is the minions mechanic that would be the more narrow. "Knocking Creatures Unconscious" applies to all categories of creatures. Minion is one category of creature.

The principle only needs appealing to if the rules are in conflict. Being destroyed prevents minions ever having their hit points reduce to 0 or fewer. So they never qualify for being knocked unconscious.

Destroyed has no definition. Language in the DMG shows that destroyed and killed are used interchangeably, so destroyed doesn't do anything to alter the more general rule regarding creatures who are killed. How are minions killed/destroyed? Damage. What does damage do? Hit point loss. Minions explicitly have 1 hit point, so the damage reduces that to 0.

All they are saying by "Any damage destroys a minion" is "Any damage reduces them to 0 and kills them since they have 1 hit point."

The rules for knocking creatures unconscious kick in, which would be why when asked WotC said yes you can knock them out.