D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Mort]

I can see it being played (and even intended) that way: seeing an invisible creature is better than, well, not seeing it, but hitting or defending against Predator-esque shimmering target is still hard.

It's a 2nd level spell, a significant resource, especially at lower levels. It's VERY niche; if it doesn't work as advertised that's a big bummer for the player. It's literally the one thing the spell does.

It also SAYS you see invisible things as if they were visible. Not as some shimmering blurry thing. A player should have some warning if a DM will use this interpretation.

 

[loverdrive]

I can knock something out with a mace, putting it to sleep. Even if it has 1 hit point.

As a tangent, realistically, I don't know about that.

I'm not a big girlie (an average man is probably stronger than me, and an average adventurer absolutely is), but a flanged mace is a lot of weight at the end of a pretty long lever, and it'd be pretty hard for me to not inflict a lethal injury. Especially against a resisting opponent who isn't going to allow me to take my time and aim for a surgical strike with the haft. Helmets, of course, help a lot but I wouldn't count on that, especially given how goblins and whatnot tend to not wear them on the artwork.

If anything, incapacitation rules would be more sensible if the target explicitly wasn't rendered unconscious, but had their leg or arm broken -- it's much easier to extract information from someone with a broken leg than to someone who can barely comprehend what's going on due to a severe concussion, after all.

 

[Pedantic]

As a tangent, realistically, I don't know about that.

I'm not a big girlie, but a flanged mace is a lot of weight at the end of a pretty long lever, and it'd be pretty hard for me to not inflict a lethal injury. Especially against a resisting opponent who isn't going to allow me to take my time and aim for a surgical strike with the haft. Helmets, of course, help a lot but I wouldn't count on that, especially given how goblins and whatnot tend to not wear them on the artwork.

If anything, incapacitation rules would be more sensible if the target explicitly wasn't rendered unconscious, but had their leg or arm broken -- it's much easier to extract information from someone with a broken leg than to someone who can barely comprehend what's going on due to a severe concussion, after all.

Movie rules unconsciousness might be the single most common genre trope ascended to setting norm. Bonking someone on the head to put them out temporarily, without any complication more severe than a headache later is both utterly unrealistic and utterly normative.

 

[Maxperson]

As a tangent, realistically, I don't know about that.

I'm not a big girlie, but a flanged mace is a lot of weight at the end of a pretty long lever, and it'd be pretty hard for me to not inflict a lethal injury. Especially against a resisting opponent who isn't going to allow me to take my time and aim for a surgical strike with the haft. Helmets, of course, help a lot but I wouldn't count on that, especially given how goblins and whatnot tend to not wear them on the artwork.

If anything, incapacitation rules would be more sensible if the target explicitly wasn't rendered unconscious, but had their leg or arm broken -- it's much easier to extract information from someone with a broken leg than to someone who can barely comprehend what's going on due to a severe concussion, after all.

I imagine that it would be easier for someone who is skilled with the use of the weapon. Your reasons, though, are why I liked 3e's penalty to hit when trying to knock someone out with a weapon. That represented the additional difficulty involved.

 

[Maxperson]

Movie rules unconsciousness might be the single most common genre trope ascended to setting norm. Bonking someone on the head to put them out temporarily, without any complication more severe than a headache later is both utterly unrealistic and utterly normative.

And even if you do cause a concussion, it only lasts like 1 or 2 scenes anyway.

 

[loverdrive]

It's a 2nd level spell, a significant resource, especially at lower levels. It's VERY niche; if it doesn't work as advertised that's a big bummer for the player. It's literally the one thing the spell does.

It also SAYS you see invisible things as if they were visible. Not as some shimmering blurry thing. A player should have some warning if a DM will use this interpretation.

Yeah I've re-read spell description. Welp.

I'd still say being able to use abilities that rely on sight (which, iirc, is most of spells in 5e) is a reasonable upside, even without removing adv/disadv on attacks. After all, Invisibility is also a level 2 spell, and thus a resource of similar importance and it'd be no less of a bummer if it was easily defeated completely.

 

[Faolyn]

Just to clarify - @clearstream is stating that it is impossible to incapacitate minions since any damage "destroys" them. Therefore, @clearstream is pretty clearly stating that minions are immune to a specific condition - incapacitated (at least by dealing damage).

He's clearly not using incapacitate in the condition sense of the word. Especially since, as far as I can tell, incapacitated wasn't even a condition in 4e [here] [here]. It's a condition in 5e--which doesn't have minions.

He's wrong inasmuch as you could choose to deal nonlethal damage when reducing a creature to 0 hp in 4e. You're wrong for being as picky about his use of the word incapacitate as he is about the word destroy.

 

[James Gasik]

I can definitely see your point, and would not to averse to a more granular combat system. I've been looking over Rolemaster recently, and it certainly looks like a more simulationist experience.

At least, until critical hits enter the equation. There are some patently absurd results on the various tables, lol.

 

[Hussar]

He's clearly not using incapacitate in the condition sense of the word. Especially since, as far as I can tell, incapacitated wasn't even a condition in 4e [here] [here]. It's a condition in 5e--which doesn't have minions.

He's wrong inasmuch as you could choose to deal nonlethal damage when reducing a creature to 0 hp in 4e. You're wrong for being as picky about his use of the word incapacitate as he is about the word destroy.

Ok. You're right.

 

[Micah Sweet]

At least, until critical hits enter the equation. There are some patently absurd results on the various tables, lol.

...but awesome.