Raoul's Two-Weapon Combat Rules

[comrade raoul]

I'm one of the many people who thinks two-weapon combat is too weak. As developed in the PH, it requires a great deal of feats for little-to-no benefit. The changes below should make two-weapon combat a specialized but potentially powerful style: fighting with two weapons well should still be very expensive, but more damaging than other styles (though not so much more damaging as to be overpowered): here, a good two-weapon fighter should be able to cause more damage than a greatsword fighter or the equivalent -- but not all that much more, and he's really going to pay for it with feats.

• Virtual Two-Weapon Fighting: Any character with at least two total levels in the fighter or ranger classes may wield two melee weapons (or a double weapon) as though he had the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, as long as he is not wearing medium or heavy armor, and as long as he is proficient in both weapons he uses. This is ability is treated as a virtual feat. You may use this ability to qualify for other feats (such as Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), but you may only use these feats when you meet the requirements for virtual two-weapon fighting. (Note that this rule presumes the use of some version of ubiquitous alt.rangers who do not get Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats)
• The following new and modified feats are available:

  Expert Ambidexterity [General]
  You know how to take advantage of your full strength when using your off-hand.
  Prerequisite: Dex 15+, Ambidexterity, Int 13+, Expertise
  Benefit: You are always considered to be wielding a light weapon in your off-hand for purpose of assessing attack penalties while fighting with two weapons. Further, you can apply your full Strength bonus to your damage rolls with your off-hand.
  Note: Very close to any number of published third-party feats and as many homebrewed ones. This one is worth noting because it requires Expertise and thus a decent Intelligence: the nice thing here is that, combined with the Dex requirement and especially with point-buy characters, it prevents brutishly strong characters from making use of twice their Strength bonus: a nice balancing factor.
  
  Two-Weapon Defense [General]
  You can expertly use a pair of weapons to frustrate an opponent.
  Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting, Expertise, Int 13+, Base attack bonus +3 or higher
  Benefit: You may designate a single opponent at the beginning of each round. For the next round, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC against all melee attacks by that opponent. You may only use this feat when you are fighting with a weapon in each hand and you are proficient in each of them.
  Note: This is almost exactly the same as the Twin Sword Style feat in the FRCS, except that it's not a regional feat and applies to all weapons, not just swords.
  
  Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
  You are a master in fighting two-handed.
  Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, Dex 15+, Combat Reflexes, Twin Attack, Base attack bonus +14 or higher
  Benefit: Whenever you perform a full attack action with your primary weapon, you may make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon at the same bonus as an attack you make with your primary hand. For example, a character with a base attack bonus of +16 makes eight attacks (before considering other modifiers) at +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting supercedes the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Note that you still suffer the standard penalties for fighting with a weapon in each hand when using this feat.
  Note: This is very close to the feat of the same name in the ELH. It differs in that it is a non-epic feat with lower prerequisites. Note that it takes the place of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat in MotW. There are a number of reasons for this. First, fighting effectively with two-weapons is already very expensive (even for characters who taking advantage of Two-Weapon Fighting as a virtual feat); and I do not believe that there ought to be a continually increasing feat cost just to "keep up." Second, the marginal utility of additional attacks decreases at they are made at greater penalties: a feat that provides an extra attack at -5 is better that provides an attack at -10, and that feat is in turn better than one that provides an attack at -15. I figured that one feat -- especially one at the end of a huge chain that it largely supercedes -- is enough.
  
  Twin Attack [General]
  You can follow up a successful attack with a quick strike with an off-hand weapon.
  Prerequisite: Ambidexterity, Dex 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +12 or higher
  Benefit: When wielding two weapons and making a melee attack for which you wouldn’t normally be able to also attack with your secondary weapon (that is, one that is not part of a full attack action), you may announce that you’re using this feat. Making an attack roll as normal, but apply your normal two-weapon fighting penalties with your primary weapon. If you hit, you may make a second attack, against the same foe, with your secondary weapon (again, at the normal penalties).
  Special: This benefit does not apply when making additional attacks due to the speed magical weapon ability, or for any attacks made because of some trait of a weapon you're using (rather than your own abilities).

 

[Destil]

Really, I think two-weapon style is a bit under-rated. You pay for more verisitility, since you can still sheath/drop your off-hand weapon and fight two handed any-time you need it. You'll do a slight bit less weapon damage, but there's no other real penelity, while someone who trys to pick up a second weapon can't just get a big benifit of extra attacks. (the benifit of extra, high bonus, attacks really can't be overstated, nor can the fact that often the two-handed weapon user dosn't get all that damage they pay for, since it's just overkill once something's at -1 HP). In general to make it better combine TWF and Ambi into one feat, and things would probibly be fine...

Well, enugh rant. Evaulation:
Expert's okay, but I'd have a definate BAB requirement. Also, with magical bonuses to Str flowing like wine at high levels this is can get really scarry quickly, even with point buy. In low level / magic games with point buy should be fine, though.

I'd limit Expert Off-Hand Parry to melee attacks (try parrying a arrow). Other than that it's just a better dodge with stricter prerequesets, so it looks fine to me.

Perfect is kinda strange to me. Rules are too incosistant, specifying haste as not a valid attack really is strange. It's an extra partial action, so... speed weapons make sense, but haste dosn't. I can't tell if you get an extra attack with every attack with your 'primary' hand in a full attack, as written... Also things like sneak attack get leathal here. Twin attack, likewise, sort of confuses me, there's a bit too much overlap here, perhaps.

I've done the same style feat this way, in the past:

Tandom Strike
Requires: Ambi, TWF, ITWF, BAB 12+, Expertiese
As an attack you may strike simutaniously with two melee weapons, but this is limited to standard actions (like a charge), partial actions and attacks of oppertunity, never with a full attack, nor with an 'extra' attack that is not accualy an action (like a weapon of speed). Like shurkien this is a single attack, using more than one weapon and attack roll. You suffer a -2 penelity to hit on both rolls, as you are, effectivly, two weapon fighting. You can only gain bonus damage from percision (ranger's favored enemy, sneak attack, weapon specialzation and anything else that dosn't work on creatures immune to criticals or beyond 30') from a single hit (though if you miss with the first roll the second could deliver this damage), the second is too impercise to benifit from this.

 

[silvertable81]

I'm playing a dwarven fighter/cleric of Kord. I use ambidexterity and TWF with a light hammer in my "off" hand, in a pinch it gets thrown.

 

[comrade raoul]

Destil: Generally your comments seem on the mark. I revised Expert Off-Hand Parry, limiting it to melee attacks (you're right about the arrows) and changing the name to "Two-Weapon Defense," which seems clearer and more concise.

I'm sorry if Perfect TWF and Twin Attack seemed confusing. The basic idea is that Perfect is the "culminating" TWF feat, and supercedes Twin Attack; as such, I'll start with Twin Attack first. Basically, the feat itself is pretty close to your "Tandem Attack," but with different limitations. Except for the "speed weapon" problem, which I'll save for later, it applies to every kind of attack except for attacks in a full attack action: standard attacks, attacks at the end of a charge, partial-action attacks due to haste or surprise rounds, attacks of opportunity, and so forth. You attack once, with your primary weapon -- and then, if you hit with that attack, you also get an attack with your off-hand weapon. Both your primary attack and (if applicable) your off-hand attack suffer TWF penalties. As an example, suppose it's Tordek's action, and he's using two shortswords and has Twin Attack. He uses his move-equivalent action to move next to an orc, and then attacks it, announcing using the Twin Attack feat. He hits the orc with his primary shortsword, despite suffering the normal two-weapon fighting penalties. He then gets an extra attack against the orc with his second shortsword, which also hits and downs the orc. On his next action, he moves to a second orc, announces he's using Twin Attack, and attacks (again, with the standard penalties for fighting with two shortswords). He misses, so he doesn't get a chance to attack with his other weapon.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is like the big brother of both Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Twin Attack, rolled into one feat. It supercedes them both completely. To answer your specific question, you do get an extra off-hand attack for each attack in a full attack (just like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting gives you an off-hand attack with your second attack at -5 as well as your best attack). If I normally attack at +16/+11/+6/+1 (without other bonuses), I get eight attacks on a full attack action with Perfect TWF (at +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1, counting the -2 penalty for fighting with two weapons). This should've been fairly clear in the feat description: it applies "all attacks, not only those that are part of a full attack action." It also works exactly like Twin Attack, except you don't need to hit with your first attack for your second attack to kick in.

There's nothing in the description of either feat that prevents them from working with extra partial actions due to haste and the like, nor was that my intent. Both feats apply to extra actions of that sort. The only time they don't apply is when you make extra attacks because of some ability your weapon has. More than anything, this is an effort to preserve some semblance of internal logic: if my weapon is enchanted so that it can attack especially quickly, that shouldn't have any effect on what I can do with the weapon in my other hand. An example might also help here. Suppose my BAB is +16 and I'm using two weapons with the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat, like in the previous example. Normally, I get eight attacks (as above) on a full attack action. If the weapon in my primary hand is a weapon of speed. Now, I get nine attacks, at +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1; the third attack at +14 is the extra attack afforded to me by my magic weapon. If I make a standard attack, I get three attacks, each at +14 (one with my primary weapon, one with my off-hand weapon, and a second with my primary weapon due to speed).

 

[Destil]

Ah, alright. The two feats made sense individualy, but the overlap confused me, and I suppose I got a bit trapped in the wording, as well.. I don't know if I'd allow anything aproaching Perfect Two-Weapon, myself, epic aside... There are feats that allow 3 attacks at -4 to hit for everything, which would work out to [+16 BAB]
+12/+7/+2/-3 Main hand
+12/+7 Off hand
+12 ??

So really, Perfect isn't so bad. The attack bonus on the extra two attacks you can gain will be 10 and 15 points lower than your primary attack, and 12 and 17 points lower than a two-handed weapon user's first swing, so with enugh bonuses you'll hit something, every now and then. But most likely you'll just be missing more. May slow combat down a bit with all thoes attack rolls, but other than that would most likely work out fairly well.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmm. Should I assume that "virtual two weapon fighting and ambidexterity" are subject to the ranger's light armor and "fights as if" restrictions?

That being said, your feats are very very powerful (particularly Expert Ambidexterity). When you add the granting of virtual TWF to fighters as well as rangers, I think you've actually reduced the opportunity cost of the feats and consequently more emphasis has to be placed upon the prerequisites for them.

Also, are these fighter bonus feats? That can make a big difference.

With that in mind, let's see how characters might be constructed with these rules.

The Double Sword Fighter (32 points)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
1. Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise
2. Exotic Weapon: Double Sword, virtual TWF, Ambidex
3. Expert Ambidexterity
4. Weapon Specialization: double sword
6. Combat Reflexes, Twin Attack
8. Improved Critical: Double Sword
9. Improved TWF
10. Two Weapon Defense
12. Power Critical: double sword, Iron Will
14. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Alternately, this character could dish out even more damage by switching double sword proficiency for bastard sword and wield paired bastard swords. There's really no reason not to when his off hand weapon is always considered light. . . .

The Sword and shield dual wield (32 points)
Stats as above
1. Expertise, Exotic Weapon: Dwarven Waraxe, Power Attack
2. Shield Expert, Virtual TWF
3. Expert Ambidexterity
4. Two Weapon Defense
6. Combat Reflexes, Twin attack
8. Improved Shield Bash
9. Shield Charge
10. Improved Crit: Dwarven Waraxe
12. Power Crit: Dwarven Waraxe, cleave
14. Perfect TWF

The Greatsword and armor spikes Fighter (32 points)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
1. Power Attack, Expertise, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
2. Two Handed Power Strike, virtual TWF, Ambidex
3. Expert Ambidexterity
4. Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
6. Combat Reflexes, Twin Attack
8. Improved Critical: Greatsword
9. Improved TWF
10. Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes
12. Power Critical: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: armor spikes
14. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


I wish I could find Spikey's old damage calculators, but I'd be willing to bet that either of these constructions will blow the two handed weapon grunt out of the water in terms of damage/round--even if you give him a two point advantage in strength (assuming the point buy str 18, dex 13, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 8 construction) and allow the Two Handed Power Strike (double strength bonus with a two handed weapon) feat from Quintissential Fighter.

The twin bastard sword guy will accomplish this because his 2d10+2x str is worth an average of two points per round more damage than a greatsword fighter with two more points of strength who deals 2d6+2x str. (Although power attack can make up for this). Once he picks up weapon specialization, his lead increases to four points--outside the reach of power attack. By using multiple energy weapons or by power attacking himself (like all damage bonusses that apply equally to both weapons, a two weapon fighter gets a better deal out of power attack than a two handed weapon fighter), the two bastard sword fighter can extend this lead. Twin attack will extend this lead to apply equally to partial attack actions and attacks of opportunity while granting the two weapon fighter a lot more tactical options than the greatsword tank. (The second attack could be a trip, disarm, grapple attempt or sunder--so the two weapon fighter has the option to deal damage AND make a special attack while the greatsword grunt is limited to one of these options).

The shield and axe dual wielder is a slightly more tactical construction. His main damage will come during his charges where he will attack with the waraxe, hit, then strike for double damage with the shield and bull rush his opponent back.

The greatsword and armor spikes character competes with the twin bastard sword fighter and knocks him out of the water in terms of damage if you allow two handed power strike. Of course, looking at his feat list, he obviously sacrificed a lot of flexibility to do that.

If you don't permit two handed power strike, then there will be absolutely no contest between the greatsword grunt and the dual wielder in terms of damage output. Then the twin bastard sword/greatsword contest looks like this:
bastard sword damage: 2x (1d10+2+strength bonus+magic)
Greatsword: 2d6+2+1.5(str bonus+1 (greater strength since fewer stats are required))+magic
Advantage: twin bastard sword: +4 points (damage dice)+magic+.5 (strength bonus)-1.5+2 (Specialization)=4.5+magic+.5(strength bonus)
When the characters' strengths reach thirty or so (as D&D assumes high level characters' strengths will), that's about 10 points of damage per iterative attack plus damage from magical enhancements.

The greatsword grunt does have an advantage in flexibility I suppose--since he has a much more limited selection of essential powerful feats:

1. Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
6. Spring Attack, Two Handed Power Strike?
8. Improved Critical: Greatsword
9. Iron Will
10. Close Quarters Fighting
12. Power Critical
14. Blindfight

The greatsword fighter can afford to take the spring attack chain, close quarters fighting, and blindfight for a total of five feats worth of flexibility that the twin bastard sword fighter doesn't have. Of course, the twin bastard sword fighter could have these and still deal out more damage than the greatsword grunt if he were willing to give up the more efficient two weapon defense for dodge or give up power critical and the twin bastard sword does have more flexibility than the greatsword grunt in some areas--he does have combat reflexes after all. And he can pick up a shield and use it (and still use most of his feats) if he finds a nice one or needs the extra AC.

A quick note about the examples: 32 point buy is, or course, an arbitrary number but a lower point buy (25 or 28) would lower both strength scores which is an advantage to the twin weapon fighter since that means that his larger damage dice and double dipping on weapon specialization make more of a difference. Higher point buy would probably also be to the advantage of the twin weapon fighter since the greatsword grunt can't buy more strength but he can. . . .

My suggestions:
1. Eliminate the "You are always considered to be wielding a light weapon in your off-hand for purpose of assessing attack penalties while fighting with two weapons" from the text for Expert Ambidexterity. This will eliminate the double bastard sword problem while allowing double swords to remain useful.

2. Eliminate the Twin Attack feat--or at least up the pre-reqs by a lot (maybe BAB +12, combat reflexes instead) This negates the biggest disadvantage of two weapon wielders by allowing them to take their damage advantage to attacks of opportunity and charges. From the wording, it would also seem to apply to cleave attacks, expert tactician, and great cleaves.

3. I would also consider losing the free virtual ambidex/TWF proficiencies. The feat chain you've created is well worth the opportunity cost of just about every feat in a fighter's career.

 

[comrade raoul]

Thanks for the extended and thoughtful critique. That said, I don't think that the two-weapon fighter, as I've imagined him, is quite so powerful as you've noted. I tried to specify virtual Two-Weapon Fighting pretty clearly; you'll note that I didn't mention the Ambidexterity feat at all. This was intentional: you only get Two-Weapon Fighting as a virtual feat; characters still have to buy Ambidexterity like any other feat. The idea was to make basic two-weapon fighting cost only one feat for fighter type characters (you're only spending a feat on Ambidexterity, and you can still get some benefit without a crappy off-hand), not two, as in the PH.

This means that Twin Bastard Sword Guy has neither Power Attack, nor Cleave (he also never picked up Weapon Focus). It also means that all of his feats until he reaches 10th level are spent either on the basic enhancement feats for weapon skill (Proficiency, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Critical) or Two-Weapon feats, or their prerequisites.

As such, I think you're underestimating Greatsword Grunt, who's an impressive four feats ahead of Twin Bastard Sword Guy. That's pretty significant -- it can buy you things like Improved Initiative and the whole Great Cleave chain. He's also got a lot more flexibility, since his non-TWF feats don't have to be spent on prerequisites for the TWF feats. Note that Greatsword Grunt will also have something of an AC edge (and, since his dex will only be 12 or maybe 13 (for dodge) with point buy, more points for Con or Wis), since he'll be in plate and it's going to be tough for Twin Bastard Sword Guy to get a good enough dexterity to wear light armor with as much benefit as heavier stuff (and he'll certainly have to do so at the cost of things like Str and Con, if he does it at all).

As for your specific suggestions, I don't agree with #1, since I want characters to be able to take feats that allows them to plausibly use two longswords or battle axes or (yes) scimitars. It makes double weapons even less useful than they are, but I don't really have a problem with that, since I think double weapons should be rare -- they're just sort of goofy.

I do, however, agree with #2; I think the BAB requirement for Twin Attack should be raised to +12. This is also helpful because it makes it a tougher feat for rogues to get, and it's such a great feat for them (two sneak attacks in a surprise round, for instance). I also think that Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting should only work on full-attack actions; you're quite right in point out that two-handers should have an edge in partial/standard attacks. Note that Twin Attack doesn't give you your second attack automatically, even though fighters will probably usually hit on their highest bonuses.

The final picture I'm going for is for a dedicated two-weapon fighter to outdamage everyone on a full attack action, at the cost of practically his whole career's (or at least, his first ten levels) worth of feats. The two-hander won't match him for damage, but he will be usually better at non-full-attacks (though Twin Attack evens this somewhat, but not quite entirely) and have many more other combat abilities. That seems basically fair to me. Does it to you as well?

 

[comrade raoul]

Note that the feats on the first post were edited in light of Elder-Basilisk's suggestions.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

The final picture I'm going for is for a dedicated two-weapon fighter to outdamage everyone on a full attack action, at the cost of practically his whole career's (or at least, his first ten levels) worth of feats. The two-hander won't match him for damage, but he will be usually better at non-full-attacks (though Twin Attack evens this somewhat, but not quite entirely) and have many more other combat abilities. That seems basically fair to me. Does it to you as well?

I always was under the impression that the heavy-weapons were supposed to allow you to deal more damage... or at least the same amount of damage. Why would you allow anyone to pick up a feat chain that would allow them to deal -more- damage than the heavy, uber-damaging fighter? It might jsut be personal preference, but I would keep in mind that whatever you feel is detrimental to the two-weapon fighter (more points in Dex) isn't really a drawback (reflex saves, ac, ranged attacks would all be better), just in the same way as strength is potent for a fighter-type. allowing two bastard swords with reduced penalties seems like asking for trouble...

And why in the Hells should Double-weapons be inferior? Like someone said somewhere, they're rare, but that's no reason that they should be weak!

 

[comrade raoul]

This does largely boil down into personal preference. To make it a bit clearer, I want two-weapon and two-handed style to both have advantages and drawbacks. In particular, I'm going for:

Two-weapon: More damage on a full attack action, very large feat cost, higher ability score requirements. Should be deadly, but limited to specialists.

Two-handed: More damage on a non-full-attack action (usually), no real feat cost, fewer ability score requirements. Should be broadly helpful for many characters.