Rapid Shot and haste

[Magic Slim]

You don't take the-2 on the hasted attack when rapid firing

Tellerve

Hehe now I just don't know.

I've computed expected damage output for

a) Normal Attack + Haste Attack (both full BAB)
vs
b) Normal Attack + Rapid shot attack + Haste Attack (all at BAB -2)

And expected damage output from b) is significantly higher...

Slim

 

[Hypersmurf]

But if he uses rapid shot on top of that, ALL his attacks are at -2?

Every single one.

Just like if he were Hasted and attacking with two weapons - the TWF penalties apply to the Hasted attack as well. And any Cleave attacks, the extra attack he gets for Improved Trip, and his Expert Tactician attack as well.

And if you stab someone with your javelin and then use Rapid Shot to throw it at someone else, you take a -2 on both of those attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I recently ran a 3.5 conversion of The Abduction of Good King Despot. I made the 3 centaur archers in the sagittarius room all 6th level fighters, with a Haste effect on them. The half-orc barbarian PC got skewered with 8 of the 12 arrows fired at him in the first round. It was pretty nasty at first. The full attack, using their large sized +4 Str composite longbows was +11/+11/+6, or +9/+9/+9/+4 using Rapid Shot, for 2d6+4 (x3 on crit) damage per arrow. No magic items or anything.

 

[Darklone]

Hehe now I just don't know.

I've computed expected damage output for

a) Normal Attack + Haste Attack (both full BAB)
vs
b) Normal Attack + Rapid shot attack + Haste Attack (all at BAB -2)

And expected damage output from b) is significantly higher...

Slim

Yeah, Slim, for one attack. If you have a lot of iterative attacks, it becomes worse... and it depends on the AC of the opponent as well.

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

You don't take the-2 on the hasted attack when rapid firing

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

I'd say that the above line covers the -2 modifier for Rapid Shot. Same with TWF or FoB. It's a situational modifier, the situation being that the character is taking an extra attack using a feat or special ability.

 

[Magic Slim]

Yeah, Slim, for one attack. If you have a lot of iterative attacks, it becomes worse... and it depends on the AC of the opponent as well.

Well I did do it for every chance of hitting (0% to 100%), but I didn't check with iterative attacks. I'd assume that there would be less of a difference the more attacks there were, since the extra rapid shot attack would represent a smaller portion of the attacks made...

I guess I'll have to check it out this afternoon.

Slim

 

[Li Shenron]

I second the opinion that you get both the Rapid Shot extra attack and an extra attack from a Haste or Speed effect. The Rapid Shot penalty of -2 applies to every single attack from the beginning of your turn to the beginning of your turn in the next round (including AoOs), which include the Haste/Speed attack as well.

There should not be any problems in stacking: Haste/Speed effects are always magical increases of your speed IIRC, while Rapid Shot represents better competence, just like getting more attacks from a higher BAB, which of course stack with Haste.

 

[Darklone]

Well I did do it for every chance of hitting (0% to 100%), but I didn't check with iterative attacks. I'd assume that there would be less of a difference the more attacks there were, since the extra rapid shot attack would represent a smaller portion of the attacks made...

I guess I'll have to check it out this afternoon.

Slim

The more attacks you have, the more the -2 to all of them decreases your damage output. Especially the worst attacks e.g. with a chance to hit someone on a 18-20 suffer a lot from a -2 to hit.

Edit: Hmm, if I had one attack and would hit my opponent on a 18-20, with Rapid shot I'd have two shots that only hit on a 20... Did your sheet give this result too, that Rapid Shot isn't worth it for high ACs even with only a few attacks?

 

[Brown Jenkin]

While the -2 to hit can impact your damage, just like Power Attack it can benefit based on your oppnents AC. If an opponent has a high AC Rapid Shot probably shouldn't be used, If the opponent has a low AC the extra damage from an additional hit more than makes up for the -2. Remember many big creatures have ACs in the teens and low twenties, so if you itterative attackes with other bonuses are +17/+12/+7 Rapd Shot makes them +15/+15/+10/+5 which means you have gone from 2 attacks with a 50% or better chance to hit to 3 attacks with a 50% or better to hit.

Edit: Also useful for taking out the low level Mooks.

 

[Tellerve]

Ok, I'll recend my statement after reading it again and subsequent people's posts. I might have missed the "any appropriate part" or I just didn't think it applied. *shrugs* whatever the case, I'll throw my hat into the -2 on everything. This does make me want to bring up a squirrelly little problem I've been thinking about in regards to a character I'm playing but I think I should start his own thread.

Tellerve