Rappan Athuk: Reloaded SOLD OUT by wide margin!!

[Numion]

Amazon sells books at a cheap rate, and I have continually heard retailers complain that they simply cannot afford to compete w/ them.

That's how businesses improve. That is, they improve or close doors. Someone better will pick up the slack.

Sure, we sell some books through them, but I only do so after the FLGS orders are filled. Like I said before, no one ever had a tabletop game at Amazon.

I never had a tabletop game at the LGS either, so what's your point? Those who value that sort of thing can support their LGS - for everyone else, there is Amazon

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I mean honestly, what I am asking is: does the Amercan consumer today believe in their heart of hearts that they deserve to buy things at a massive discount.

No.

But that doesnt mean that I shouldnt try to make my budget for gaming material stretch as far as a I can. I dont know about those other cats that you we're quoting but for me that's what it's about. If I can go on Amazon and purchase two WOTC books for just 10-15 dollars more than I would if I just purchased one WOTC book from my LGS then that's what I'm going to do.

The same thing for when I got my Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Set. I bought it from an on-line retailer for less than retail and used the balance of that money on some PDF's that I wanted.

If I can get it for cheaper I will. Y'all can go on and bitch about how I'm killing the the LGS, but I'll repeat it here for those of you in the cheap seats: Not all of us have a LGS that is AWESOME like some of you cats out there. My LGS does NOTHING for me outside of sell me stuff. That's it. If I can get two such books for my allotted budget then that's what I'm going to do. It's not like I'm some miserly cheapskate, I play Warhammer 40K for pete's sake. I have 6 armies (Space Wolves, Necrom, Tyranid, Eldar, Dark ELdar and Tau) none of which are under 1750 raw unadjusted points. But given the choice between giving GW $35 for one box of gaunts and going to the Warstore.com where my money will go farther, once again guess what I'm going to do?

I said this before, at this point I'll probably be forced to go to my LGS and pay full price for RAR, I'm sure that will make alot of you happy. But for me If I can stretch my gaming dollar I will, especially when the money that I save is going right into the industry in one way or another....

 

[Orcus]

Shin-

I've said it before, if your LGS is not doing it for you then you shouldnt have to support them. In today's market, if they arent adding value such as game space, product knowledge, tips, tournaments, hosted game days, etc, then why they heck wouldnt you buy from Amazon? I dont see any reason. So my stance has always been give the LGS a shot first. And I dont mean the big ticket retail booksellers either. I mean you LGS. And if they arent supporting the roleplaying gamer then they are slitting their own throat. I have a perfect example. When I lived in Las Vegas my LGS was a comic store. They were huge. And they didnt give a about roleplayer. I tried to show up and have a game day and drop off free product for them to use as giveaways and do whatever I could. They were totally uninterested. So guess what, Amazon it was. BUT up here in Coeur d'Alene, my LGS is Gamer's Haven and they rule. Though they are primarily a war gaming and minis place, they provide space for roleplayers, they host game days, they even let me and my group play there. They bring in new people. They try to teach them the game. THAT deserves support.

I appreciate that cost is a huge part of the buying decision. But dont let it be the only part. I'm not bitching about what you are doing. But, likewise, dont expect every product to be available at a cut-rate online retailer. But I do appreciate cost and if you can stretch your gaming dollar, more power to you. Heck, I try to do the same.

As for making me happy, dont worry about that. I am happy no matter what.

And as for supporting Amazon, you can normally find all our products there. You might not get them first. But you can generally get them. And at the discounts you want. But not RARE--that was a very specific unique colectors item product. This is not a "Necro is anti-Amazon." I like Amazon, but they arent my primary distribution plan because--as a gamer--I want to support the infrastructure that has built this hobby. And Amazon hasnt. But, like I said above, if your LGS is not friendly to roleplayers, then go get your Amazon on!

Happy gaming. And enjoy RARE. I personally think it rules.

Clark

 

[Orcus]

Numion, actually what happens is the large volume dealers move in, undercut the competition, drive them out of business, and then decide that this "low volume gaming junk" isnt worth their time and they dont carry it. Then we are SOL. The very market forces you are espousing, which I also support, can unfortunately lead to market casualties. The model you discuss is relevant for a product that has permanency, in other words that it will always be part of the market. Gamign supplements are not that type of product. These arent cars or food or gas or clothes or things like that. There are some prodcuts that if their delivery infrastructure is undercut and abandoned, those products are then gone. So a "the market will fix it" isnt always a good answer. Because the market wont "fix" anything. The market will react. There is no doubt about that. But dont confuse reaction with the result you want. I presume you want a continued stream of gaming products. That's like saying nature will take care of it. But extinction is a part of evolution. Sorry for this long discourse, but I wanted to explain some of the thoughts behind my decisions.

Clark

 

[freebfrost]

I mean honestly, what I am asking is: does the Amercan consumer today believe in their heart of hearts that they deserve to buy things at a massive discount.

Not that it'd be "nice to find a sale", or that they might "wait for a sale on somehting they can't afford"...but that they are somehow entitled to pay a retail price that would drive a Publisher out of business every moment of every day?

From all that I see these days, my answer is yes.

We live in a society that desires as much as possible at the lowest possible cost. You see this on these boards as people clamour for wanting the cheapest price for their product (usually the Amazon argument); you see it in the growth of discount retail stores (WalMart); you see it in the attitude of Americans that steal music or movies on the net (BitTorrent); you see it in our politics (self-insert various examples of hubris).

Sadly, while I'm proud to be an American, I don't take much pride in our attitudes as a whole these days. I see this attitude in today's children - how many spoiled kids get absolutely everything they want today anyways? (My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV).

And as a result, you see this belief that consumers are being screwed by companies that won't sell them a product at whatever they feel is a valid price point - case in point, the RA:R debate.

I'll admit I readily buy all of my WotC hardcovers at Amazon, but I also support my FLGS by buying other products there, as well as directly purchasing items from Paizo, Necromancer, Green Ronin, and others online. So I can see all the sides in the argument. I'm also a gamer and a D&D collector, so I love every discount I can get. But you won't hear me complain when I don't get a product at the exact price *I* think it's worth. Either it is worth the cost, and I'll pay the price, or it isn't worth the cost for me. The only rationale I see for arguing about this is when people won't admit that they have this attitude you mention TB. I am looking for a different side of the debate, but I have yet to see one.

 

[Orcus]

Teflon-

Amen, brother!

Clark

 

[Teflon Billy]

I mean honestly, what I am asking is: does the Amercan consumer today believe in their heart of hearts that they deserve to buy things at a massive discount.

No.

But that doesnt mean that I shouldnt try to make my budget for gaming material stretch as far as a I can. I dont know about those other cats that you we're quoting but for me that's what it's about. If I can go on Amazon and purchase two WOTC books for just 10-15 dollars more than I would if I just purchased one WOTC book from my LGS then that's what I'm going to do.

The same thing for when I got my Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Set. I bought it from an on-line retailer for less than retail and used the balance of that money on some PDF's that I wanted.

If I can get it for cheaper I will. Y'all can go on and bitch about how I'm killing the the LGS, but I'll repeat it here for those of you in the cheap seats: Not all of us have a LGS that is AWESOME like some of you cats out there. My LGS does NOTHING for me outside of sell me stuff. That's it. If I can get two such books for my allotted budget then that's what I'm going to do. It's not like I'm some miserly cheapskate, I play Warhammer 40K for pete's sake. I have 6 armies (Space Wolves, Necrom, Tyranid, Eldar, Dark ELdar and Tau) none of which are under 1750 raw unadjusted points. But given the choice between giving GW $35 for one box of gaunts and going to the Warstore.com where my money will go farther, once again guess what I'm going to do?

I said this before, at this point I'll probably be forced to go to my LGS and pay full price for RAR, I'm sure that will make alot of you happy. But for me If I can stretch my gaming dollar I will, especially when the money that I save is going right into the industry in one way or another....

Why did you open that post with "No", but then go on to basically explain that the answer was "Yes"?

 

[freebfrost]

Why did you open that post with "No", but then go on to basically explain that the answer was "Yes"?

That was going to be my question too.

 

[Numion]

Numion, actually what happens is the large volume dealers move in, undercut the competition, drive them out of business, and then decide that this "low volume gaming junk" isnt worth their time and they dont carry it. Then we are SOL. The very market forces you are espousing, which I also support, can unfortunately lead to market casualties. The model you discuss is relevant for a product that has permanency, in other words that it will always be part of the market. Gamign supplements are not that type of product. These arent cars or food or gas or clothes or things like that. There are some prodcuts that if their delivery infrastructure is undercut and abandoned, those products are then gone. So a "the market will fix it" isnt always a good answer. Because the market wont "fix" anything. The market will react. There is no doubt about that. But dont confuse reaction with the result you want. I presume you want a continued stream of gaming products. That's like saying nature will take care of it. But extinction is a part of evolution. Sorry for this long discourse, but I wanted to explain some of the thoughts behind my decisions.

I've heard this argument before, and it forgets one important thing. If the large volume businesses decide not to carry gaming stuff (which hasn't happened), there would again be a niche for gaming stores. Someone would fill that niche.

Besides, if low volume "gaming junk" wasn't worth their while, why haven't the online stores noticed it since .. since online stores started selling that junk?

Maybe my opinions are colored by my mixed feelings for the LGS here. They have a good selections of stuff, but it's hopelessly overpriced due to their monopoly, since internet stores aren't as common in Finland. And most gamers won't order from US Amazon. Which is pretty fantastic deal to europeans, even with the postage fees, since the dollar is weak.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Unfortunately, that is becoming the prevalent attitude. I suspect it is largely the result of the discount big box stores (Wal-mart, Best Buy, etc.) who came in with such low pricing that it hurt the smaller retailer and, consequently, trained a whole generation that "it must be cheap or I won't buy it."

Isn't that just plain capitalism? I mean, why is it that consumers wanting to get the best deal are somehow beyond the pale? Why should consumers simply pay whatever vendors want to charge?

I love Necromancer Games, so this isn't a rant about them. It's more a reaction against the notion that somehow people looking for a bargain are being sinful, while sellers should be trusted to charge only what is fair. What some are saying is a "massive discount" price may just be the price consumers feel is the price they feel comfortable paying, or which they feel is fair. I don't see anything wrong with that. I agree veiled threats are silly, but really, the average consumer sees that a place like Amazon charges a lot less than the local store, and they wonder why. Yeah, I know, and you know, that brick and mortar places have a lot more overhead, but that they also provide places for gamers to meet and play (hopefully). But the average consumer probably isn't making that logical progression. We - all of us - shop around for the best price on just about anything, from groceries to cars to non-game books. But evidently the added value that many are touting as a big plus for the brick and mortar places is simply not there at many shops. If people are saying they just aren't getting that added value at a shop, and find that the discounts at Amazon make shopping there more attractive than an actual store, then maybe store owners need to rethink their business plan.

Crap. I just noticed that Orcus pretty much said what I wanted to say, better. Well, I typed a lot, so I'm not deleting it