Rate Class Balance

Thanee - have you ever played a high-level monk? I just find it hard to believe of all the classes on your ranking the monk is dead-last. I remember many a DM forbidding monks because they were "broken" - and yes they have toned them down somewhat for 3.5, but IMHO they are certainly not the bottom of the barrel.
 

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Lasher Dragon said:
Thanee - have you ever played a high-level monk? I just find it hard to believe of all the classes on your ranking the monk is dead-last. I remember many a DM forbidding monks because they were "broken" - and yes they have toned them down somewhat for 3.5, but IMHO they are certainly not the bottom of the barrel.

"Toned down"? I thought they increased the power of the monk in 3.5 significantly. Better flurry of blows, more feat selection, etc.
 

IIRC the movement and the Chi fist has been lessened and/or it takes longer to achieve. Is the damage lessened too? Been too long since I've looked.
 

Lasher Dragon said:
Thanee - have you ever played a high-level monk? I just find it hard to believe of all the classes on your ranking the monk is dead-last. I remember many a DM forbidding monks because they were "broken" - and yes they have toned them down somewhat for 3.5, but IMHO they are certainly not the bottom of the barrel.


yeah good point...
Monks are one of the best...
 

Since when were monks overpowered or broken? I think DM's ban monks more often because they just don't like Shaolin, bare-fisted warriors standing toe-to-toe with Joe Fighter and Bob Paladin. Also, looking at what they can too, it's clear to see that this "broken" quality is more myth than anything else. There's more than one way to kill a monk.

Class balance is interesting. There's even spreadsheets out there done by people that kind of "calculates" them in a point-rating system. But, those ratings also calculate based on the assumption that everything is orderly and fair and equal, but I think for the most part are pretty accurate.

For instance. The Cleric is quite a powerful class if utilized in certain ways. And can often, at higher levels, become stronger than other classes in other niches, if they are given time to buff up. However, the Cleric does have a check and balance against it. D&D also kind of "assumes" that you'll be roleplaying, and as such a DM could easily control characters that rely on deities or Forces of Nature for powers. The Cleric is only overly strong if you throw out peripheral rules, like hoping a Cleric actually behaves like a cleric and not just a warrior with extraordinary powers.

The druid can also do some pretty nasty things if you min/max him properly, and use abusive strategies. Just look around this board or the WotC optimization boards. They can, at any level, prove to pretty sadistic against fighters. However... again, D&D assumes that when you play a druid that you'll actually play a druid... and not just a warrior with Powers of Nature that he freely abuses to kill people with fire seeds.

Finally, I would also put monk at the bottom of the list. A high level monk has about one thing going for him that makes him "awesome". And that is his SR. Otherwise, he's no more special than any other class. His magic items don't make him impressive because any fighter or rogue worth his salt is going to enchant his equipment with the same stuff. He can't trip better than a fighter. He can't hit better than a ranger. His powers are one-hit wonder attacks. The monk, in some cases, if you follow the rules, is lackluster (unless of course I once again throw out the concept of monk and min-max to my pleasure). I don't think any of the core classes are broken, least of all of them the monk.
 

The controversy of the Monk is a perfect example of counting abilities on paper without considering how they fit into play. 3.0 and 3.5 Monks are very attractive at higher levels, but 3.0 Monks sucked eggs at low levels.
 

A high level monk, evasion, SR, tumble, that crazy movement rate, and 2 words - spring attack. Bye bye Mr. Melee, bye bye Mr. Caster... better hope yer good with a bow - and that the monk didn't pick up deflect/snatch arrows.
 

A high level monk, evasion, SR, tumble, that crazy movement rate, and 2 words - spring attack. Bye bye Mr. Melee, bye bye Mr. Caster... better hope yer good with a bow - and that the monk didn't pick up deflect/snatch arrows.

There are many serious flaws with this strategy. First, spring attack will not let a monk take advantage of his flurries or number of attacks. Instead... he gets one punch, at a rogue BAB level. A wizard might have trouble with this... but fully armored cleric or druid probably won't, or any other Mr. Melee for that matter. Spring attack is more a strategy you'd give to a fighter with a big sword.

Second, yeah, you can't hit him with arrows and he has evasion... but any caster worth his salt again won't be using nothing but fireballs to kill a high-speed monk.

Third... spring attack is about the one feat you NEVER see on Power-Build monks that people post on the internet. If only it were that easy. this isn't to say that taking the feat makes it useless... but it's hardly as powerful as you're making it out to be. It's about as tricky as the wizard that casts fly on himself, soars into the air, and rains fireballs on everyone.
 

Evasion & SR makes the fireballs mostly worthless. I would stunning fist a wizard every round. Improved disarm is nice when you have the big bad fighter. Same with the cleric. Then I suppose you could go the sunder route. Of course there's the Dim Mak. In games I have played, the only chance high level characters have against a high level monk is being aware of the monk first (pretty unlikely) and having numbers on him. The monks have the best saves too, which is nice, especially when backed up with the old standby cloak of resistance.
 

Monks are not bad (that's why I have given them a 5), but they are nowhere near the casters at high levels in combat, not even close.

And yeah, Monks got a good deal better in 3.5, in 3.0 I'd have given them a 1 or 2 (well maybe a 3, if I felt generous). ;)

Bye
Thanee
 
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