Rate S1: The Tomb of Horrors (corrected poll options)

[Crothian]

Again, this is meant friendly like, though I'm disagreeing.

this is totally friendly like.

I'm not sure many people can answer to all of them, I ran it 4 years ago. I've run a lot of things and played in a lot of games since then so I just don't remember how they defeated everything. But if I have the time I'll see if I can answer what I do recall of their venture. And even then it may take something like you watching a group go through it to believe.....

 

[Pants]

7. Forsaken Prison: How did you know moving all 3 levers up was correct, while down was death?

Luck and preparation. They all had fly spells cast and tried each combination.

15.5. Concealed Door in Pit Trap: How exactly did you find this door? Do you routinely check the walls of pit traps for concealed/secret doors? Did you check all 7 of the pit traps previous to this one for them, and kept at it, just in case? Did you check the walls of the pits after this one for doors?

Luck. The Elf saw it

24. Adamantite Door: You routinely stick 3 sword blades simultaneously into slots to open doors (the only way)? What cleverness led you to do this, with no clues? What if your party (like every one I've ever been in) does not carry a total of 3 swords? Do you carry 3 of every weapon around, just in case? Am I unskilled because I don't?

This is where we last left off. I described the door several times as the players puzzled over it and the newbie chimed in 'We should try and stick some swords in there...'

Lucky guess.

So yeah, luck mostly got them as far as they did.

 

[nato9]

Luck and preparation. They all had fly spells cast and tried each combination.

Fair enough. Why fly spells though? What if the trap was that the ceiling would collapse, or walls close in, or poison gas, or any of a thousand things?

Luck. The Elf saw it

Elf was what I figured. Like you say though, luck, not skill. Also, only a 1 in 6 chance per elf, so 5 out of 6 super-skilled parties (with one elf) will miss this one. Does in a pit count as passing by?

This is where we last left off. I described the door several times as the players puzzled over it and the newbie chimed in 'We should try and stick some swords in there...'

Lucky guess.

So yeah, luck mostly got them as far as they did.

That does seem like a lucky, specific guess to me. I guess I'm just a skeptic by nature. Honestly though, I've never had 3 swords all in one party. I suppose that was more likely in 1E with bigger parties and swords having few weapon competitors, but even then I never had 3 sword carriers.

And thats only 3 of the must pass hurdles.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

5. Arch of Mist: What lead you to touch the stones specifically yellow - blue - orange? If you stand there, they glow yellow - orange - blue. What lead you to know touching the stones activated it at all? How was it cleverness?

Trial, error, dead PC"s.

7. Forsaken Prison: How did you know moving all 3 levers up was correct, while down was death?

Trial, error, dead PC's.

9. Complex of Secret Doors: You actually found the triggers of:
pull down
pivots centrally
pull inward and up at bottom (not top!)
slides up
double panels pull inward
slide left
7 studs - press all

See 5 & 7

Do you always describe how you open secret doors so precisely?

Yes. Don't you?

Is that real player skill?

Yes. Ever play Ravenloft?

10. Great Hall of Spheres: You knew one of the spheres was a secret passage? Out of 20, you knew which one? You didn't check say 15 of them and give up? You knew the arch in here was a trap, even if you succesfully (somehow) figured out the arch in 5? (Same for the alter in the chapel?)

See 5-7

15. Stone Gate: You knew to insert a magic ring, and only a magic ring? Do you always try inserting your magic rings in holes? I generally try to keep mine. Did your DM say something like "its just the right size for a magic ring"?

According to the sages we say, angels and demons we questioned, and Gods we petitioned, we could go in there with our weapons, armor, and nothing else, and survive to kill the dread undead Lord of the Grinning Skull Demiplane.

Try, try, try again.

15.5. Concealed Door in Pit Trap: How exactly did you find this door? Do you routinely check the walls of pit traps for concealed/secret doors?

Yes. Don't you? Haven't you ever played Undermountian, I-6, I1-3, X1, B2, B1, or many other modules, including, but not limited to: Palace of the Silver Princess? Trap door inside the pit trap to quickly escape before it fills up with venomous fire ants that spit acid is a common trap feature.

Did you check all 7 of the pit traps previous to this one for them, and kept at it, just in case?

Yes. Didn't you?

Did you check the walls of the pits after this one for doors?

Yes, didn't you?

19. Mummy Preparation Room: Out of everything else in this room, you recognized that the two half keys in the vats were vital? How did you find them and ignore everything else?

We searched EVERYTHING (and some PC's died) and stole everything. Plus, if you find 2 halves of a key in a crypt, you can pretty much BET that it works in something.

21. Agitated Chamber: Although you are presumably moving slowly and carefully, you didn't stay in this one chamber long enough to roll an odd number and get hit with the tapestries?

The room ran out of tapestries before we ran out of PC's Otherwise, see above.

How did you know to search in the mummy room long enough to find the key, but knew to get throuh here as quickly as possible?

The mummy room didn't shake.

If you didn't upset the tapestries, how'd you find the yet-another-must-find secret door?

None of us really liked the gnomish illusionist anyway, he had a crappy french cajun accent.

23. False/True Door: Out of the 5 false doors in the tomb, you knew this ONE had a secret door behind it?

Not at first.

Did you check every one?

Yes. Didn't you?

Did you search for a secret door in the floor after every door?

Yes. Don't you?

24. Adamantite Door: You routinely stick 3 sword blades simultaneously into slots to open doors (the only way)?

We'd seen locking mechanisms such as this before. We'd lost swords of sharpness to them. We also practically wept over the loss of Blackrazor to such a lock.

What cleverness led you to do this, with no clues?

Hmmm, looking at the picture, I realized what it was. 3 sword shaped gaps.

What if your party (like every one I've ever been in) does not carry a total of 3 swords?

Fighter*, Paladin*, Monk, Ranger*, Wizard, THIEF*, Illusionist, Cleric.

8 man party. Hmmm, 4 swords, minimum.

Do you carry 3 of every weapon around, just in case?

Let's see: When I needed fast weapons, dagger or short sword. Longsword normally. Mace against some undead. Battleaxe for other monsters. Two swords though.

Am I unskilled because I don't?

I finished the module. Draw your own conclusions. Right tool for the right job, buddy. Of course, these were the days of weapon speeds, armor vs weapon modifiers, etc.

25D. Pillared Room / Silver Throne: You figured out to specifically apply the silver end of the scepter to inlay of the crown in the throne?

Yes.

How did you know?

After the thief melted in agonizing screams.

And why was that clever, while touching the silver end to the crown was wrong?

Because it stung and burned like hygiene.

29. Valves of Mithril: You both kept the scepter and knew it was once again the only key to going forward?

It was a SCEPTER! If nothing else, we had a cool souvineer we could smash the Duke of the Ninth District of Von Lon in the mouth with.

Did you somehow know not to take it out of the tomb?

Ummm... No comment.

You weren't, as the text states, "foolish" enough to try the, oh, I don't know, KEYS you found earlier?

Not me! The monk on the other hand.

How did you know to use the silver end before, and the gold end now?

After Thief 2.0 melted the second time, we knew to probably try the gold end.

With no clues whatsoever, what great player skill told you this?

The theif horribly dying. Again.

30. Second False Tomb: I could see not falling for the first one, but after this one you STILL didn't believe you had finally beaten it?

After all of THAT? HELL F****NG NO! Besides, the thief didn't die.

Do you routinely disbelieve the seeming victories of all your adventures this way?

The thief didn't die.

Also, another must find secret door.

Above thief saw it with his "mythtical evith thight."

32. Secret Door to True Tomb: Even though you weren't foolish enough to use the keys before, how did you know that now they were to be used?

Process of elimination.

Didn't try the scepter again?

You read where we used to go by the grim remains and grease stains of previous PC's, right?

33. The Crypt of Acererak: You knew to use the second key (and only that) AND you knew to, specifically, turn "3 times to the right in succession."

Eventually.
Ever seen an elvish Fighter/Magic Use/Thief spontaneously combust? It was one of Acererak's favorite tricks.

With your great player skill. Then, you knew, with only a FIVE SECOND countdown to react,

Your GM never counted much, did (s)he? Trust me, have a few character fall into lave/hit with a castle/immolated/fallen on by a dragon/swallowed by a pit/explode in flames/summon demogorgon/be defenstrated by a cloud gaint/get his sex changed/get jumped by 1,000 cannible gnomes, and as soon as the DM starts to count, YOUR first instinct is to run.

to get off the rising floor (not, perhaps, ride it upwards) or be "SQUASHED LIKE JELLY AGAINST THE ARCHED ROOF!"

The thick, creamy jelly of many, many explorers before (all rolled up by us) warned us.

33.5. Acerak: Despite no other monster being like this, you knew to use ONLY
forget
shatter
power word kill
vorpal blade
exorcise
dispel evil
holy word

Panic, process of elimination, and dying, gives you a lot of ideas to try.
Oh, and it's shatter cast by an astral mage, IIRC.

thief slinging gem from crypt

We got desperate.

What lead you to use only those attacks?

Eventually, they were the only ones that worked.

How did your party have enough of them? How did you manage enough of them before being drained? Ok, maybe I should not include that one, since we all know the famous example of grabbing the treasure and running, so arguably it is not must-pass.

See #5

REMEMBER: these are only the must pass obstacles. Many arbitrary death traps are not listed because you don't HAVE to face them. However its unlikely you would avoid them all, and many are as arbitrary and unlikely to be passed as those listed.

But if you claim to beat the module, you had to pass every one of those I just listed. How?

Experience, my good man. And one of the CRUELEST GM's the world has ever seen. She was a true blue, dyed in the wool, BITCH!

I can believe you are smarter than me. No problem.

How about more persistant.

I can believe you are a better player than me. Again, no problem.

How about, more experienced.

I cannot believe you passed everything I just listed. There are too many totally arbitrary, highly specific, and completely ridiculous checkpoints to pass WITH NO CLUES WHATSOEVER. You did not do this without reading the module or hints from the DM. Its absurd to claim otherwise; if you disagree, reread some of the things on that list.

You've only played 3E, right? Very few traps. Very few arbitrary "You're dead, suckass." events. You don't have to believe.

There is a problem here in tone and motivation. As asides in the text make clear, it is DM vs players. A quote from page 4 sums it up: "Cruel, but most entertaining for the DM..." Its from a mentality wherein the DM finds death and humiliation of players "entertaining." Isn't DM vs players one of the major signs of low RPG skill?

So is quitting, my good man.

You think too literal, your shock that someone would check the inside of a pit simple boggles my mind.

I think the modules popularity springs from its infamy. Saying you "beat TOH" gives a feeling of toughness and impressiveness. I think attachment to those feelings is the big motivation. I think some of that attitude has been conveyed in this thread. To me, some are like a 12 year old player bragging about his 25th level wizard.

Some of the people saying it was unbeatable or "Teh Suxx0r" are like 12 year olds putting in cheat codes, using a game shark, or quitting with the infamous battle cry of "THIS IS TOO HARD!"

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I just can't see reasonable answers to that whole list. And every single one has to be passed.

Done.

Next challenge?

I want to see you, and your PC's, survive Expidition to Barrier Peaks.

I had 3 PC's of MINE shoot themselves in the face with a blaster rifle.

 

[Crothian]

A lot of it guess work and just trying things to see what works. A lot of old modules had obstacles that the PCs needed to just figure out, so players got used to that. So call it luck or deductive reasoning.

 

[the black knight]

Well done, Warlord Ralts. Let me just say that you got there WAY ahead of my own group, but your experience wasn't all that different from my own, albeit we had four thieves in our party, of which none survived.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Well done, Warlord Ralts. Let me just say that you got there WAY ahead of my own group, but your experience wasn't all that different from my own, albeit we had four thieves in our party, of which none survived.

We lost LOTS and LOTS of PC's.

I should dig out my monochrome cover copy of Tomb of Horrors (complete with coloured by YOURS TRULY! graphics) and show you the notes in the margin and on the map, from when I started running it.

And sheets of loot that survived thier item saves.

And summoned monsters that were unable to return (having been pulled from extradimensional spaces) and then horribly died.

And traps reset by the ol' Jewel Gnashers himself.

People whove been playing with me for awhile let out a collective groan when, soon after the release of 3.0, they saw me retooling the Tomb.

Characters who wished to go from 2E to 3E had to survive the Tomb of Horrors, and best Jewel Gnasher's physical form in order to be transformed to survive the new world.

 

[nato9]

Ok Warlord Ralts you're making me die laughing over here (I'm sure there was a trap like that in the Tomb SOMEWHERE)! Some really funny stuff.

Your description kind of reminds me of a video game where you have like 30 lives. Everytime you die a new guy drops out of the sky and can try again, with all the previous lives' knowledge. Any idea of the final body count? How many parties? If you have infinite PCs to use, and death is meaningless, are you really beating it? We just may have different ideas of success.

But now I'm gonna tap in the Konami code before every game session.

Quote:
9. Complex of Secret Doors: You actually found the triggers of:
pull down
pivots centrally
pull inward and up at bottom (not top!)
slides up
double panels pull inward
slide left
7 studs - press all


See 5 & 7

I really find it hard to believe trial and error led to you saying those specific words. I think the DM would have to fudge this.

Do you always describe how you open secret doors so precisely?


Yes. Don't you?

No I like to play D&D rather than fiddle with semantics like the module demands. Games would slow to an absolute crawl as described.

According to the sages we say, angels and demons we questioned, and Gods we petitioned, we could go in there with our weapons, armor, and nothing else, and survive to kill the dread undead Lord of the Grinning Skull Demiplane.

I guess spells like that could give a lot of the answers needed. So you mean you left all your non-weapons/armor items behind, and this let you know to insert a ring?

Yes. Don't you? Haven't you ever played Undermountian, I-6, I1-3, X1, B2, B1, or many other modules, including, but not limited to: Palace of the Silver Princess? Trap door inside the pit trap to quickly escape before it fills up with venomous fire ants that spit acid is a common trap feature.

Ouchie. I've seen I6, X1, B2, B1, and the Palace, but no I just didn't remember the secret door in the pit trap in them. I guess I'm just not a fan of secret doors that must be found to continue.

We searched EVERYTHING (and some PC's died) and stole everything. Plus, if you find 2 halves of a key in a crypt, you can pretty much BET that it works in something.

Well I guess thats just it. You can afford to lose multiple PCs just searching one room. My parties come in smaller than battalion size. Fair point on the key though!

The room ran out of tapestries before we ran out of PC's Otherwise, see above.

The mummy room didn't shake.

None of us really liked the gnomish illusionist anyway, he had a crappy french cajun accent.

etc.

Seriously, you're killing me!

Let's see: When I needed fast weapons, dagger or short sword. Longsword normally. Mace against some undead. Battleaxe for other monsters. Two swords though.

Actually that sounds more like 3E "golf bag fighter" to me than 1E. I always felt swords were really encouraged in 1E. I also don't ignore encumberance.

If you followed all the weapon speed and weapon vs armor rules back then, I surrender. No questions asked. You the 1E AD&D master!

More funny stuff...

Your GM never counted much, did (s)he?

Out loud, no. Out loud kind of gives it away.

Eventually, they were the only ones that worked.

Well, even a mean guy like Acererak is screwed if hes up against infinite PCs that learn from the mistakes of those who fell before them.

You've only played 3E, right? Very few traps. Very few arbitrary "You're dead, suckass." events. You don't have to believe.

Far from it. Played more earlier stuff than 3E actually. Like most here prolly, I started out in the old days. I read the TOH sitting in front of me quite a while ago. You're right though, I don't like traps. They seem like an artifact of the early days to me. A TOH type setting is one of the few places they make sense!

You think too literal, your shock that someone would check the inside of a pit simple boggles my mind.

This is like the worst criticism ever leveled against me. It will haunt me for the rest of my days! Maybe that does seem more unlikely to honestly happen to me than it really is.

Some of the people saying it was unbeatable or "Teh Suxx0r" are like 12 year olds putting in cheat codes, using a game shark, or quitting with the infamous battle cry of "THIS IS TOO HARD!"

Ok, I give, whats a game shark. Was that in the pool with the siren in room 12? (btw, she was the trickiest thing in the whole Tomb!)

I never said too hard; I said too arbitrary. At least I don't think I'm whining; I think I have reasonable points.

Next challenge?

I want to see you, and your PC's, survive Expidition to Barrier Peaks.

You hit a gap in my old collection. I'm in the don't-mix-fantasy-and-SF camp. What can I say? I'm just plain no good.

How about White Plume Mountain? I LOVE that one!

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Ok Warlord Ralts you're making me die laughing over here (I'm sure there was a trap like that in the Tomb SOMEWHERE)! Some really funny stuff.

Your description kind of reminds me of a video game where you have like 30 lives. Everytime you die a new guy drops out of the sky and can try again, with all the previous lives' knowledge. Any idea of the final body count? How many parties? If you have infinite PCs to use, and death is meaningless, are you really beating it? We just may have different ideas of success.

Well, not exactly an endless supply of NPC's.

See, we had preperation. At roughly 11th level, we each put on the ring of regeneration, severed our pinky fingers, and gave it to a trusted (but retired) henchman. We also connected our souls to a gem, that would shine if we died, allowing the henchman to raise us from the dead.

We begged, borrowed and just plain took by force three rods of resurrection, used wishes to "reset" our Resurrection limit, and hoped for the best.

Getting to the entrance to the Demiplane of the Grinning Skull was a challenge in itself.

But now I'm gonna tap in the Konami code before every game session.

Yup. Clone Clone Soul Copy Soul Copy Life Guage Life Guage COntinency Ressurection is always a great code.

I really find it hard to believe trial and error led to you saying those specific words. I think the DM would have to fudge this.

We always were big on details. I still am to this day. When a group find a secret door, or looks for a secret door, the roll isn't to find the door itself, but rather what may be a control. In this way, the check for traps roll (done behind my screen) isn't a tell all, but rather tells you whether the ACTIVATION LEVER for the trap is trapped.

But my players are used to this and expect it. It isn't everyone's cup of tea (nor do I expect everyone to play like this) but it is sweet to us.

No I like to play D&D rather than fiddle with semantics like the module demands. Games would slow to an absolute crawl as described.

I guess it all depends. We average about 4-8 combats a night, play for 4-8 hours, have intense and detailed descriptions (being an author helps me come up with descriptions for just about anyone/thing/place the players might ask about)

I guess spells like that could give a lot of the answers needed. So you mean you left all your non-weapons/armor items behind, and this let you know to insert a ring?

A ring is an armor item, in our book. LOL

Ouchie. I've seen I6, X1, B2, B1, and the Palace, but no I just didn't remember the secret door in the pit trap in them. I guess I'm just not a fan of secret doors that must be found to continue.

I'm almost positive that there are pits with secret doors in them, but that is a kind of staple in our campaign, and most modules (with a few exceptions, like ToS, EtBP, and a few others) were modified to expand them and adjust them to our campaign style.

Keep on the Borderlands is HUGE! Multiple dungeons, blood cults in the caverns below the keep, the illithid who drove the hermit mad cooking up trouble in the lightless depths of the forest, etc etc etc.

We were teens with too much time on our hands who hit modules like hungry sharks when they came out.

Well I guess thats just it. You can afford to lose multiple PCs just searching one room. My parties come in smaller than battalion size. Fair point on the key though!

Well, we went in with a party of 8, including a henchmen or two. Make NO mistake, we got beat up badly.

Seriously, you're killing me!

Glad to see your not taking it personal attacks. I realized when I read your reply that some of it might have seemed a little harsh.

Actually that sounds more like 3E "golf bag fighter" to me than 1E. I always felt swords were really encouraged in 1E. I also don't ignore encumberance.

Niether did we. Portable holes, weightless sheaths, belts of the armed warrior, armbands of the armed, stuff like that.

Some weapons were inneffective against some foes, and since we never knew what we'd hit, we carried mutiple weapons apiece. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

If you followed all the weapon speed and weapon vs armor rules back then, I surrender. No questions asked. You the 1E AD&D master!

Naw, some people did spell points.

We did use psionics though, AFTER we looked over the system and ensured that we all understood the limitations that the rules said, and what the GM's expected to be observed.

Out loud, no. Out loud kind of gives it away.

To us, out loud kind of was to simulate that part of your brain the yells: "RUN YOU FOOL!"

Well, even a mean guy like Acererak is screwed if hes up against infinite PCs that learn from the mistakes of those who fell before them.

Oh man, he wasn't defenseless. As a master of time and space, Acererak was able to draw forth minions from all over the cosmos to protect his physical form.

We once fought a mutant in Inertia Armor, armed with a Mark VII blaster rifle and chemical grenades, that he pulled from the future.

Ouch.

Far from it. Played more earlier stuff than 3E actually. Like most here prolly, I started out in the old days. I read the TOH sitting in front of me quite a while ago. You're right though, I don't like traps. They seem like an artifact of the early days to me. A TOH type setting is one of the few places they make sense!

To us, traps were part and parcel of dungeon stomping. We even built traps into our fortresses (and were required to right down how to get by, disarm them) and when we built the "Tomb of Heroes" for our fallen PC's that could not be brought back.

BUT, we didn't do it in one sitting. We took on ToH repeatedly over the years. It took us FIVE YEARS to finally beat it.

This is like the worst criticism ever leveled against me. It will haunt me for the rest of my days! Maybe that does seem more unlikely to honestly happen to me than it really is.

Didn't mean to offend, or my sarcasm meter is off.

Ok, I give, whats a game shark. Was that in the pool with the siren in room 12? (btw, she was the trickiest thing in the whole Tomb!)

A game shark is a cheat device plugged into the PS2 to allow you cheat codes.

I never said too hard; I said too arbitrary. At least I don't think I'm whining; I think I have reasonable points.

Naw, you weren't. That was directed at other people, not you.

It was arbitrary, in a lot of places (the steamroller for one) you were just dead, and waking up in the "Room of Return." But it was a challenge.

You hit a gap in my old collection. I'm in the don't-mix-fantasy-and-SF camp. What can I say? I'm just plain no good.

Oh no, I wanted to hear your laughter and amazement that people played it through.

Believe me, it was funny for the result of trying to figure something out was to disintegrate the mage.

Again.

How about White Plume Mountain? I LOVE that one!

That GODDAMN CRAB! In the bubble! I HATE THAT CRAB! I've had to ressurect so many boiled PC's!

Unfortunately for the halfing, my paladin HATED halfings. Thought they were twisted scions of evil hiding in cherubic body.

 

[the black knight]

We lost LOTS and LOTS of PC's.

Ditto that. Of the seven or so players we had at the table, I think each of us went through at least three to four characters, not to mention numerous hirelings and summoned creatures that fell along the way. The surviving PC (or in the rare case, PCs) of each massacre would usually flee the Tomb and return with new fodder in tow. I wish I had saved my own sheets from that encounter, but sadly they are lost to the sands of time. Memories are still there, though.