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Rate the Munchkiness
- Thread starter Yair
- Start date
Stacking save penalties is a well-known way to break 4e, but it's not strong enough to make a solo, invincible character. There are a bunch of things about the described character that are either illegal or don't work as intended. Some of these have been covered in other comments, but here's the list of everything I can see:
1. This isn't explicitly stated, but the plan against regular enemies is to run in, apply Fire Shroud damage to one guy, run away and hide for 5 minutes, then come back when he's dead and do the same thing to the next guy, right? (If not, all those save penalties won't apply as stated.) The big problem with this, of course, is that the enemies can go find reinforcements, continue killing innocent villagers, run away and hide with all their loot, etc. in the meantime. Or prepare to slam the door behind her when she comes in next time, so she can't run or teleport away.
But even purely mechanically, this won't work. Say you have a standard encounter of 5 creatures. The munchkin wizard sets one on fire and runs away. The other 4 can then use Heal checks to each give a +2 bonus to the burning guy's next saving throw, and it can (perhaps after a few tries) save with a +8 bonus and survive.
2. If Orb of Imposition is used with sleep, it can apply a save penalty to either the slowed condition or the unconscious condition but not both. If she uses the save penalty to make sure the target falls asleep in the first place (by applying it to the slowed condition), then the target doesn't get the extra penalty against the unconscious condition and can wake up quickly.
3. She can only have one copy of Sleep prepared per day. As FireLance mentioned, PHB 158 states "You can't prepare the same spell twice." And when choosing powers, PHB 27 states "You can take each power only once".
4. Veteran's Armor was errata'd to remove the ability that trades an action point for a daily power. She can use Salve of Power instead (for Sleep only), but those cost a lot more.
5. The gear selection is illegal. A nightmare is not a magic item and can't be selected for the level 16 slot. It costs 25,000g, which would use up all of the gold available to a level 16 character.
1. This isn't explicitly stated, but the plan against regular enemies is to run in, apply Fire Shroud damage to one guy, run away and hide for 5 minutes, then come back when he's dead and do the same thing to the next guy, right? (If not, all those save penalties won't apply as stated.) The big problem with this, of course, is that the enemies can go find reinforcements, continue killing innocent villagers, run away and hide with all their loot, etc. in the meantime. Or prepare to slam the door behind her when she comes in next time, so she can't run or teleport away.
But even purely mechanically, this won't work. Say you have a standard encounter of 5 creatures. The munchkin wizard sets one on fire and runs away. The other 4 can then use Heal checks to each give a +2 bonus to the burning guy's next saving throw, and it can (perhaps after a few tries) save with a +8 bonus and survive.
2. If Orb of Imposition is used with sleep, it can apply a save penalty to either the slowed condition or the unconscious condition but not both. If she uses the save penalty to make sure the target falls asleep in the first place (by applying it to the slowed condition), then the target doesn't get the extra penalty against the unconscious condition and can wake up quickly.
3. She can only have one copy of Sleep prepared per day. As FireLance mentioned, PHB 158 states "You can't prepare the same spell twice." And when choosing powers, PHB 27 states "You can take each power only once".
4. Veteran's Armor was errata'd to remove the ability that trades an action point for a daily power. She can use Salve of Power instead (for Sleep only), but those cost a lot more.
5. The gear selection is illegal. A nightmare is not a magic item and can't be selected for the level 16 slot. It costs 25,000g, which would use up all of the gold available to a level 16 character.
Crazy_Dragon
First Post
this is kinda fail... breaks to many rules
This character looks like it could handle a computer RPG by exploiting the system, but any decent DM will see the tricks and have an answer ready.
There are a couple of mistakes regarding the rules, but you could fix some with a salve of power or three.
The final problem with the character (assuming it works like intended) is that it is not fun to play when the tricks work (you win too easy) and it is not fun to play if the tricks fail (he dies). There is no struggle in there. Nothing really exciting will happen after you have seen a couple of encounters through.
Who actually enjoyes playing a character as broken and abusive as this one?
There are a couple of mistakes regarding the rules, but you could fix some with a salve of power or three.
The final problem with the character (assuming it works like intended) is that it is not fun to play when the tricks work (you win too easy) and it is not fun to play if the tricks fail (he dies). There is no struggle in there. Nothing really exciting will happen after you have seen a couple of encounters through.
Who actually enjoyes playing a character as broken and abusive as this one?
Davachido
Explorer
How does he hit reliably with int that low?
Aside from some of the rules corrections as stated by other people; ways to counter this are simple.
Dungeon with traps and enclosed spaces help.
Difficult terrain and monsters with anti-teleport fields.
Have a large mix of monster roles who are spread apart, without someone helping bring them together the wizard will have a lot of problems.
How does he deal with monsters that turn invisible or fly/move faster than his mouunt?
Have the door of the dungeon close up when the wizard enters the room so he can't run.
Lastly have something immune to a keyword that sleep has, or leader monsters that boost the saves/auto-save.
Aside from some of the rules corrections as stated by other people; ways to counter this are simple.
Dungeon with traps and enclosed spaces help.
Difficult terrain and monsters with anti-teleport fields.
Have a large mix of monster roles who are spread apart, without someone helping bring them together the wizard will have a lot of problems.
How does he deal with monsters that turn invisible or fly/move faster than his mouunt?
Have the door of the dungeon close up when the wizard enters the room so he can't run.
Lastly have something immune to a keyword that sleep has, or leader monsters that boost the saves/auto-save.
Yair
Community Supporter
Thanks all! Your responses were very helpful. I'm afraid I can't answer most of the questions, as my knowledge of the rules is rather low. Thanks again 
Rothe, your question I can answer - he doesn't play it. But, his play characters are also pretty optimized, often much like this one. He had once character that I never once hit, for example; he eventually died when he rolled a natural 1 on a saving throw (D&D 3.5). To each his own.
One more question, though - is there a rule that says ongoing damage stops by itself after 5 minuets? Or does it last indefinitely, until the creature dies or saves?
Rothe, your question I can answer - he doesn't play it. But, his play characters are also pretty optimized, often much like this one. He had once character that I never once hit, for example; he eventually died when he rolled a natural 1 on a saving throw (D&D 3.5). To each his own.
One more question, though - is there a rule that says ongoing damage stops by itself after 5 minuets? Or does it last indefinitely, until the creature dies or saves?
Llamas Notsheep
First Post
That +17 attack bonus (which, as someone pointed out, is very low at level 16) is only once per encounter with the Wand of Accuracy. The rest of the time, you don't get +4 dex, meaning you only have a +13. The average enemy at level 16 is going to have at least a 27 will, meaning that even under the best of circumstances, there's a substantial chance he's going to miss despite having 2 rerolls.
A solo is going to average several points higher, meaning you're probably going to need to roll at least a 17 to hit on the initial attack, a 13 to hit on the wand reroll, and a 13-16 on the elven accuracy reroll. .48. That means a 19.2-36% chance to miss on all 3 attacks. A regular leader type enemy is going to have similar defenses, while a leader solo is going to be at least 3 higher... meaning he'd need a 20/16/16-19 to hit. Even with both rerolls, that's a 53-64% chance to miss all 3 attacks.
Nevermind the fact that a "party" is going to face plenty of enemies that are L+2 or L+3...
Also, what happens to the wizard if he or the mount gets knocked prone? He's off the nightmare and needs to burn a move and a standard to get back on--assuming he wasn't also pushed. Any even-level enemy going to hit him a good 90% of the time, even with -5 attack penalty from his cloak. One prone, one stun, probably even one daze(save ends) and he's toast.
Orbizards are incredibly powerful, but they aren't good solo characters, and this build is far, far worse than most--for a solo character and for a party.
A solo is going to average several points higher, meaning you're probably going to need to roll at least a 17 to hit on the initial attack, a 13 to hit on the wand reroll, and a 13-16 on the elven accuracy reroll. .48. That means a 19.2-36% chance to miss on all 3 attacks. A regular leader type enemy is going to have similar defenses, while a leader solo is going to be at least 3 higher... meaning he'd need a 20/16/16-19 to hit. Even with both rerolls, that's a 53-64% chance to miss all 3 attacks.
Nevermind the fact that a "party" is going to face plenty of enemies that are L+2 or L+3...
Also, what happens to the wizard if he or the mount gets knocked prone? He's off the nightmare and needs to burn a move and a standard to get back on--assuming he wasn't also pushed. Any even-level enemy going to hit him a good 90% of the time, even with -5 attack penalty from his cloak. One prone, one stun, probably even one daze(save ends) and he's toast.
Orbizards are incredibly powerful, but they aren't good solo characters, and this build is far, far worse than most--for a solo character and for a party.
Infiniti2000
First Post
Does he break the rules on his play characters, too?
