Rate WG7 - Castle Greyhawk

Rate WG7 - Castle Greyhawk

  • 1

    Votes: 36 37.9%
  • 2

    Votes: 10 10.5%
  • 3

    Votes: 7 7.4%
  • 4

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • 5

    Votes: 4 4.2%
  • 6

    Votes: 12 12.6%
  • 7

    Votes: 6 6.3%
  • 8

    Votes: 6 6.3%
  • 9

    Votes: 2 2.1%
  • 10

    Votes: 11 11.6%

  • Poll closed .
Dragonhelm said:
.... Though I think Castle Zagyg will do a lot to soothe "old wounds", I have a feeling it won't meet many peoples' expectations. Castle Greyhawk, as an entity, has taken on mythological aspects within the gaming community. We all have this idea of it being this uber-dungeon, the best of the best. Yet when we see it, will it meet our expectations? Or has too much time gone on now for it to be received well? Perhaps Castle Greyhawk "as it was meant to be" should remain a "shining castle on the hill".

Well, I'm curious to see Castle Zagyg. I'd like to see the castle as written by the original creators (EGG and Rob Kuntz). Sure it will not be 100 percent identical to the original dungeon of 1972-74. But so what? Goodman Games' 'Blackmoor' is not identical to the original Arneson campaign either, but nonetheless shows us something of Arneson's vision.

With Castle Zagyg, at last we can see how the original creators now understand one of the original D&D settings (weirdness and all).
 

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MulhorandSage said:
Greyhawk issues aside, WG7 is a tribute to gamer humor. If you like cheezy gamer humor, then you'll probably get a fair bit of enjoyment out of it. If a little gamer humor goes a long way, then you'll find it tiresome or irritating.

For me (and I'm one of the rascals who contributed to it), I think if you don't take it too seriously and view Castle Zagyg and/or Greyhawk Ruins as the *real* thing (or justify the WG7 stuff as a bizarre hallucinatory series of side levels that's easily ignored or attributable to bad wine or those strange herbs that the party's idiot druid picked on the Wild Coast), you shouldn't get too offended by it. I certainly understand the disappointment of Greyhawk fandom. Heck, I felt a bit of it myself when I saw the proposal, and tried to make sure my section had a little Greyhawk content (if you're gonna have a parody module that's called Castle Greyhawk, the least you can do is include some Greyhawk in the actual parody. Parody, when it's done right, can be an honorable and even affectionate form. As I've said before, I'd love to see a good one done for the Realms.)

However, for what it's worth, I pretty strongly suspect WG7 was meant as a swipe at Gary by at least some people. There was a lot of bad blood at TSR between Gary and some of the people who worked there at the time, and the desire to do it was probably ascerbated by the fact that (the much-demanded) Castle Greyhawk had been promised for years and never delivered. I can see someone at the company saying "You want a Castle Greyhawk, fine, have a Castle Greyhawk, now stop bothering us."

Hiya Scott! WAY long time no speak! Nice to see you around!

As for a Realms parody, let's round up all of the WG7 folks and "do" the Realms! :] It's actually my favorite campaign setting (that's where we play nowadays), so it'd be a labor of love.

I tended to avoid the politics around TSR, so I wasn't even aware of bad blood.
 

As a writer myself, I absolutely put the blame, if blame need be assigned, on the shoulders of the people who decided what the project would be, rather than the freelancers they had pull the trigger. It's hard to overstate to a non-writer how precarious the position of a freelancer really is. Turning down work is rarely an option.

And I love Dungeonland and the Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, for what it's worth, and they're some of the few things that have survived the various purges of D&D material over the years and are among the oldest materials I still own.

Having it as side levels, or a demiplane reached through Castle Greyhawk, works perfectly fine and I agree, it does fit with the flavor of some of the apparent Gygaxian diversions over the years.
 

StupidSmurf said:
Hiya Scott! WAY long time no speak! Nice to see you around!

As for a Realms parody, let's round up all of the WG7 folks and "do" the Realms! :] It's actually my favorite campaign setting (that's where we play nowadays), so it'd be a labor of love.

I tended to avoid the politics around TSR, so I wasn't even aware of bad blood.

Same here, John. Good to see you alive and kicking.

I suspect that many of the authors of WG7 aren't around anymore, or they're busy. But it'd be fun.
 

MulhorandSage said:
Same here, John. Good to see you alive and kicking.

I suspect that many of the authors of WG7 aren't around anymore, or they're busy. But it'd be fun.
according to the credits:

editing: Mike Breault with Jon Pickens
Cover Art: Keith Parkinson
Interior Art: Jim Holloway with Jeff Easley
Typography: Kim Janke
Cartography: Stephen Sullivan
Keylining: Stephanie Tabat and Dave S. LaForce


others: Chris Mortika, Steve Gilbert, Rick Swan, Guy McLimore, Greg Poehlein, David Tepool, Paul Jaquays, John Terra, Greg Gorden, Grant Boucher, Kurt Wenz, John Nephew, Scott Bennie, Rick Reid, Ray Winninger, and Steve Perrin
 

John, can you comment on what the people who commissioned WG7 were thinking? It reeks of malice to me.

And how would you do The Moonsea (parts of which I recently reread) differently now?
 

I'd like to have given it around -10 but settled for 1.

IMO the source material was completely inappropriate for a parody that generally wasn't funny.

The only TSR adventure I ever bought that went into the bin.
 

diaglo said:
according to the credits:

editing: Mike Breault with Jon Pickens
Cover Art: Keith Parkinson
Interior Art: Jim Holloway with Jeff Easley
Typography: Kim Janke
Cartography: Stephen Sullivan
Keylining: Stephanie Tabat and Dave S. LaForce


others: Chris Mortika, Steve Gilbert, Rick Swan, Guy McLimore, Greg Poehlein, David Tepool, Paul Jaquays, John Terra, Greg Gorden, Grant Boucher, Kurt Wenz, John Nephew, Scott Bennie, Rick Reid, Ray Winninger, and Steve Perrin

Dammmmmmnnnn.....some names there that I haven't heard from in a while.
And I love it...I'm an "other". :p

I recall excessive niftiness emanating from Scott B, Paul J and Greg G.
 

Faraer said:
John, can you comment on what the people who commissioned WG7 were thinking? It reeks of malice to me.

And how would you do The Moonsea (parts of which I recently reread) differently now?

I recall that the document outlining the proposal for WG7 being a sort of "fun", tongue-in-cheek proposal. We were supposed to read it over, fire off a proposal to Bruce Heard (Acquisitions, TSR) about what we wanted to do, and go from there. It was never presented as nothing more than "Here's a fun project, something a little different", if memory serves me correctly.

Like I said, I made it a point of staying away from the politics of TSR. I kept a low profile and just tried to get as many projects as I could, building up a reputation and a bibliography ;) Unfortunately, when TSR collapsed and WotC took over, I think I sort of fell through the cracks. Maybe my work wasn't memorable enough or something, or maybe I kept too low a profile. Who knows?

But at one Gen Con I had heard a lot of stuff...though I can't vouch for accuracy. I had heard that there were problems between Gary and the regime in power at TSR. I heard that Lorraine Williams actually hated D&D, and that since she was the grand-daughter of the creator of Buck Rogers, they were obligated to churn out a new edition of the Buck Rogers RPG despite the bad smell that wafted from it each time. Looking back at all of that, and looking at the timing of stuff like WG7, I would SPECULATE that WG7 was meant to be a trashing of Gary's legacy, something that probably came from high, high up, as opposed to from people like Bruce Heard, who I always had a fantastic relationship with and who was every bit the professional and nice guy.

As for the Moonsea. Damn. Well, first of all you have to understand that freelancers write what we're told to. I was told that the Moonsea needed to be two books, one for the DM, and one for the players. Ok fine. That's what I gave them, but it also restricted the amount of space I had to work with.

Things I'd have loved to have gone into detail and/or fleshed out, were instead just touched upon. I also would've loved to have developed Glister, the city on the northeast corner of the Land of Thar, the way I've done in my current campaign. In the absence of any official descriptions of Glister, I've turned it into what amounts to an Evil City. It's a pit. Temples of all of the evil deities of Faerun are everywhere. Slavery is legal. Drug use is rampant. Gladitorial games are all the rage. Corruption is everywhere, and murder is an accepted way of dealing with problems. Think of it as Sanctuary meets Sodom & Gomorrah.

I also would've loved to have done more with Zhentil Keep and Hillsfar. It's regrettable that my chance to tinker with Zhentil Keep happened during the unfortunate period of time where we were stuck with Cyric. Hated that turd. Bane rules.

With D&D 3.5 we have all these nifty prestige classes, and the whole concept of someone having more than one class without all of the rigamarole of multi-class limitations. I would've loved to have fleshed out more NPCs, having the tools of 3.5 at my disposal. I'd have loved to have given Mendrill Belarod's stats (yes, Mendrill is a character of mine, having played him since the days of AD&D's first edition). I'd have loved to actually have included a decent adventure in the book, like the Realms products do these days, as well as come up with one or two new prestige classes suited for the Moonsea.

Who knows? If WotC does decide to redo the Moonsea, maybe I'll get some chance to "do it right." Don't get me wrong, I am happy with what I did, but as you can see, I only was able to tell about half the tale! ;)
 

StupidSmurf said:
Dammmmmmnnnn.....some names there that I haven't heard from in a while.
And I love it...I'm an "other". :p

I recall excessive niftiness emanating from Scott B, Paul J and Greg G.

some of youse guys like Grant (and Dave) Boucher... (Dungeon 4 Trouble at Grog's i still use)
John Nephew(Dungeon 4 Kingdom in the Swamp) and Rick Reid (also in that issue Fluffy Goes to Heck) i recall before the disaster of WG7 with fondness. but afterwards it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Paul J being one of those it took me some time to read again as a serious writer of RPG material.
 

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