D&D General Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

[Bedrockgames]

No, of course not. But your repetitive attacks on what you think safety tools are shows you fundamentally misunderstand what they are. If you simply disagreed with the idea of safety tools you'd be making completely different arguments. The "arguments" you're making show you don't actually understand what safety tools are. And I suspect you didn't actually read Consent in Gaming, because if you had you'd know that at no point do they suggest anything like what you perceive safety tools to be. You keep saying they're not a replacement therapist. Great, they're not meant to be. That you think th

No, I do know what safety tools are, and I realize there are different varieties of safety tools. But I don't use them. So I am naturally not going to be as in command of them as you or others. But I have read the document in question. I've followed threads about safety tools. I have seen them used in many live streams, and I have seen the consequences of the culture of safety tools that has become more normalized in the hobby.

 

[Steampunkette]

This is all very case by case. But there is a reality to mental illness, where you have to be very careful about allowing someone who has that kind of condition from controlling the terms of the conversation (because they can make everyone else around them crazy with demands about what is and is not allowed to be spoken of). Like I said I have experienced mental illness from both sides. And I have been around family members with very serious mental illness where this is a problem. If someone is at a point where the mere mention of something on that list is enough to set them off, I don't think the gaming table or a safety tool checklist is the the place to resolve the issue. It is not something that an RPG book can tell you how to resolve. You need to hash that out with the person based on the kind of relationship you have with them.

What kind of condition?

Mental Illness as a staggeringly broad array of different examples of divergent neurobiology?

Do you plan to pen a list of different "Conditions" that would be okay to allow to request certain topics be verboten?

'Cause what you've described, there, isn't explicitly a form of mental illness, but probably a series of personality traits centering on Manipulation and Control.

And, again, you keep going back to the well of "Sets them off". I'm in the realm of "Makes them uncomfortable". Because there is more than 0 and 1 in this kind of thing, where 0 is "Peachy Keen" and 1 is "Panic Attack". Like if 0 is "Totally Fine" and 100 is "Panic Attack" someone should be able to request their number 25 "Squicks me out a bit" not be a core feature of the campaign and 55 "Makes me distinctly uncomfortable" should just be left out of the game table altogether.

Also, why do you keep talking about "Resolving the Issue"? I cannot stress more that these kinds of things aren't a matter of therapy and more a matter of adaptation to avoid harm. It's not about digging up land mines but about putting signs up around the minefield.

 

[overgeeked]

I think if you are gaming with strangers then you need to have conversations about expectations probably.

Cool. So you think safety tools are a good idea. Glad that's settled.

I know I have met some strange folks I wouldn't want to game with. That is a weeding people out process. And to be honest, most of the real problem players and GMs I have met, are the kinds of people who are not going to set off any red flags if they can avoid it.

Right. So you use safety tools to further weed out the people who otherwise wouldn't set off any red flags. Because when I say to the DM "hey, I'd rather there not be any spiders in the game" and the DM responds "I'm not walking on eggshells for you" that's a glaring red flag that the person is a toxic nightmare that I want nothing to do with at the table or anywhere else in my life. As stated above, that saves me a lot of time and energy. Thanks safety tools.

I think what you are pointing to here though is again compatibility more than anything else. Like I said, I am not saying safety tools are bad so therefore people can and should be jerks, nor am I saying we don't have social dynamics to navigate here.

No, you've repeatedly said they cause more harm than prevent. That's nonsensical.

In terms of caring for other people, I am not arguing against that. I am arguing that the tools don't help us do that.

But they provide a scaffolding that emulates caring. That's part of the point. The safety tools don't make you care. They can't. But they do provide a rough approximation of caring. They give you lists of things your players don't want to deal with so you can approximate caring about them by excluding those elements. Because the point isn't designers forcing caring on otherwise uncaring DMs, the point is providing people who might not otherwise be emotionally intelligent enough to sort this out for themselves the tools to at least approximate a basic sense of emotional intelligence. "Oh, Sam hates spiders. I shouldn't include spiders." Done. Thanks safety tools.

That they probably cause more disruption and harm than people are realizing.

According to you and you clearly do not understand what safety tools are nor what they're meant to be. Nor how they're used. Nor when.

Like I said earlier, if I have a friend at the table who was just divorced, I am going to be more conscious of that fact when prepping material for the game. At the same time, I can't say what is the right answer for a group who has 1 person who is a afraid of spiders and 5 people who want to play Ravenloft and wouldn't mind some spiders. That is for them to hash out. But what I am not advocating is to just throw spiders at that person or allow them to reach a point where they have a panic attack.

Again, good use of safety tools. Tell me again why you're so insistent on hating other people using safety tools when you use them yourself?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Cool. So you think safety tools are a good idea. Glad that's settled.

no I think conversation first when gaming with strangers are a good idea: doesn’t mean I believe safety tools(and all that term encompasses) are a good idea

 

[overgeeked]

No, I do know what safety tools are, and I realize there are different varieties of safety tools. But I don't use them.

You've provided several examples of you using safety tools. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I've followed threads about safety tools.

Did you "follow" those threads in the same way you're "following" this one?

I have seen them used in many live streams,

Really? I haven't seen them used once on any livestreams. I've heard them mentioned. Never seen them used.

and I have seen the consequences of the culture of safety tools that has become more normalized in the hobby.

What consequences exactly? Because all I can see is the constant push back against safety tools.

 

[overgeeked]

no I think conversation first when gaming with strangers are a good idea: doesn’t mean I believe safety tools(and all that term encompasses) are a good idea

That conversation is itself a safety tool. Congrats on good use of safety tools.

 

[Vaalingrade]

the consequences of the culture of safety tools that has become more normalized in the hobby.

Ah. There it is.

I think we're done here.

 

[Steampunkette]

No, I do know what safety tools are, and I realize there are different varieties of safety tools. But I don't use them. So I am naturally not going to be as in command of them as you or others. But I have read the document in question. I've followed threads about safety tools. I have seen them used in many live streams, and I have seen the consequences of the culture of safety tools that has become more normalized in the hobby.

I'm keen to learn the "Consequences", here...

'Cause from what I've seen, the consequences are that

1) More people claim to have mental illnesses or things that make them uncomfortable.
2) You distrust them, and ascribe presumed motivations to their "False" claims which you verify are unfalsifiable.

Where what I see is:

1) More people claim to have mental illnesses or things that make them uncomfortable...
2) Because they're in a more accepting setting where their concerns and identities are validated rather than laughed at.

I'm curious whether this is just another example of Survivorship Bias.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You've provided several examples of you using safety tools. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Did you "follow" those threads in the same way you're "following" this one?

Really? I haven't seen them used once on any livestreams. I've heard them mentioned. Never seen them used.

What consequences exactly? Because all I can see is the constant push back against safety tools.

Happy to talk and have conversation with you. But not if you are going to put words in my mouth or try to twist my words into meaning I believe safety tools are a good thing. It is obvious what my meaning is (I am describing something people fo with or without safety tools)

 

[overgeeked]

Happy to talk and have conversation with you.

That's news to me.

But not if you are going to put words in my mouth or try to twist my words into meaning I believe safety tools are a good thing. It is obvious what my meaning is (I am describing something people fo with or without safety tools)

A safety tool is anything and everything that involves you checking in with the people in your circle (life, work, home, gaming, etc). So when you say you don't watch nature shows because your wife hates them...that's a safety tool. When you say it's a good idea to have a conversation with new-to-you gamers...that's a safety tool. When you say that you take it easy on relationship drama in game when a player at your table is having real-life relationship drama...that's a safety tool.

You're literally filling the thread with good examples of using safety tool whilst simultaneously raging against their use. It's honestly quite odd.