D&D General Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

[prabe]

And I would say this argument has a seriously flawed premise. I am arguing against the efficacy of safety tools and saying they are causing more damage. I am just as concerned about peoples humanity as you are: where we differ is over whether safety tools protect peoples basic humanity

A little more than half the people I GM for were strangers to me when the campaign/s started. I knew them not-well enough that I kinda wish I'd clarified both my own tendencies as a GM and their own limits/preferences as far as material. More than a year in, it feels a little late. Mostly, I just don't hammer on specific things, and I try to pay attention to their responses.

I don't think anyone is saying safety tools protect anyone's basic humanity. I think people are saying using safety tools is a basic-humanity level of caring for other people.

 

[Steampunkette]

Let's say you're right, @Bedrockgames. Let's flatly say that you're right and players at my table pull out performative discomfort about a series of topics.

Player 1) Claims to be an Arachnophobe, Claims to be made uncomfortable by sexism, Claims to be made uncomfortable by descriptions of sexual assault.

Player 2) Claims to have Depression related to their Mother's Absence in their life and thus doesn't want me to have any Orphans around to remind them of their abandonment issues with their mother.

Player 3) Claims to have an acute Gluten Allergy and thus refuses to eat any Wheat Based Products at the gaming table.

Player 4) Claims to have acondroplasiaphobia or colloquially referred to as "Fear of Little People".

As the DM I know all of these things are absolutely false because I've checked all of their cabinets, refigerators, search histories, and spoken with their therapists at gunpoint to ensure they'd break the hippocratic oath and tell me the -truth- about their purported psychiatric conditions because I'm a completely terrible person.

... who cares?

I run my game with no spiders, no halflings or gnomes (honestly, yes, please, I dislike these races anyhow), no orphans, and have 0 cases of sexual assault in the story which has all characters presented as dynamic entities with gender being ultimately irrelevant. I also make sure Gluten-Free Fad-Diet boy always has a Corn or Potato based snack at the gaming table and he doesn't get anything I prepare that has gluten in it.

Who has been harmed by this? What cultural norms have been debased? What idols crushed and what rituals of atonement must be performed?

Even if each of them is KNOWINGLY lying to me, openly, blatantly, for no reason other than "Social Capital" at the gaming table...

WHO CARES?

It does no one any harm. Even if it gives them some small illusion of "Controlling the Game" what do I care?

What does their Social Capital buy them? The same game I was going to run, anyhow... and... mutual respect at the table...? Social connections that will make the game stronger in the long run?

Trying to guess at people's motivations or the "Truth" about them is not wise. It is arrogant. It is Distrustful.

 

[overgeeked]

When it comes to spouses and immediate family members, we make more compromises, and are expected to make more compromises than with friends, acquaintances and gaming buddies. My wife won't let me watch nature shows on TV (they freak her out). It is not a reasonable imposition on a person to expect them not to watch nature shows, but it is something I am willing to compromise on because I love my wife more than nature programming (but for some people that might be a deal breaker).

It's really weird to me that you keep providing examples of you using safety tools effectively yet you cannot help but rail against safety tools. Again, try reading Consent in Gaming. It's free.

Like I said before there is no black and white 'right' compromise or solution to these kinds of problems. Gaming groups need to navigate this stuff case by case

Safety tools aren't meant to be right or perfect. They're a baseline start. That's all. Some people need these tools to even have the conversation. Of course it's case by case. Again, the checklist is the start of the conversation, not the end.

Really, go read Consent in Gaming.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And I would say this argument has a seriously flawed premise. I am arguing against the efficacy of safety tools and saying they are causing more damage. I am just as concerned about peoples humanity as you are: where we differ is over whether safety tools protect peoples basic humanity

Except you're not making any effort to offer a replacement solution. Just saying the DM is not a therapist for some reason and to not use safety tools.

It's like saying hard hats are uncomfortable and cause people to wear them in places where there's no falling objects, so let's all stop using hard hats.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I will say as someone who has anxiety and has had panic attacks that feel like heart attacks (and a real heart attack too) that I have seen people be dismissive of PTSD because they only saw people play acting at having PTSD... it is a valid fear and something that needs to be called out.

the player that almost quit my game over a seriel killer moment did not know it would set him off... I didn’t know (how could I of he didn’t).

there has to be a sane middle ground, but for a game do we really need more then “I don’t want X in the game”?

I am not saying deliberately set people off who have problems. I fully appreciate how bad a panic attack can feel. My point is these safety tools are not a good solution to serious problems like this when they arise. I don't think a checklist or a designers advice can capture the full range of potential problems and solutions (and those are going to be very individual). But one problem I do see is the watering down of what it means to be triggered. In your case, you are talking about palpable, real problems. But those are only going to be treated with more skepticism if it is normalized for people to just list of triggers, whether they cause panic attacks or are just things they find a bit icky. That is the issue I am trying to highlight here. In no way am I saying force a serial killer plot on someone, if they can't handle them.

I think in that case, it was on the player, if they couldn't handle that, to bring it up prior tot he game. Just like if you have panic attacks, and you want to game and know something in game might trigger it, you should bring that up with the group (or you should refrain from playing and treat the panic disorder). I can say from my own experience with that, there is very little a group can likely do to prevent or deal with someone getting a panic attack. I've had them, they are not something that one can easily predict. And I wouldn't expect my gaming friends to be responsible for me when that happens (in my case, I simply told my friends I needed to go to the hospital, and drove myself: and spent time treating the problem too). I think one of my concerns with safety tools is it sort of pushes the blame for something that isn't the groups fault, onto the group. The fact is when I was having those attacks, the best thing for me was to cut down on gaming, even stop and focus on dealing with the problem. Again I think the safety tools create a very simplified understanding of how something like panic disorder works (it wasn't like I had a clear list of triggers that would set it off, some people do, but even then, that list would barely scratch the surface because triggers are more likely to be things like behaviors at the table, not topics)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Except you're not making any effort to offer a replacement solution. Just saying the DM is not a therapist for some reason and to not use safety tools.

No I am not offering a replacement solution because I think this effort is very misguided. I am saying this is something to deal with as a group. It isn't something game designers can solve for us. If you have mental health issues, you should seek treatment. If someone at the table is having a problem you should treat them with empathy and find a solution that works best for the group.

 

[overgeeked]

I am not saying deliberately set people off who have problems. I fully appreciate how bad a panic attack can feel. My point is these safety tools are not a good solution to serious problems like this when they arise...

That. That right there. That is you fundamentally not understanding what safety tools are for. They are not to deal with serious problems when they arise, they're specifically about preventing some serious problems from arising in the first place. You're railing against a strawman of what you mistakenly think safety tools are.

 

[overgeeked]

No I am not offering a replacement solution because I think this effort is very misguided. I am saying this is something to deal with as a group.

Safety tools are a way to start the conversation.

It isn't something game designers can solve for us.

They're not. They're helping to start the conversation.

If you have mental health issues, you should seek treatment. If someone at the table is having a problem you should treat them with empathy and find a solution that works best for the group.

Safety tools are not your therapist. Again, you fundamentally do not understand what safety tools are or what they're for. Go read them instead of swinging at your strawman.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I run my game with no spiders, no halflings or gnomes (honestly, yes, please, I dislike these races anyhow), no orphans, and have 0 cases of sexual assault in the story which has all characters presented as dynamic entities with gender being ultimately irrelevant. I also make sure Gluten-Free Fad-Diet boy always has a Corn or Potato based snack at the gaming table and he doesn't get anything I prepare that has gluten in it.

Because you are walking on eggshells for players who don't need to be walked on eggshells for. And it isn't helping them, and it isn't helping you. It is creating emotional distance between you. I think most games people don't want sexual assault, but spiders, halflings, gnomes and orphans are all viable subject matter for plot purposes and playing purposes in an RPG. And some of these games end up with really ridiculous lists of things to exclude. Which isn't just a matter of making the game worse because content isn't allowed, but it is also a tracking issue for the GM if you need to keep referring to a list of triggers for different people.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That. That right there. That is you fundamentally not understanding what safety tools are for. They are not to deal with serious problems when they arise, they're specifically about preventing some serious problems from arising in the first place. You're railing against a strawman of what you mistakenly think safety tools are.

My point is a list of things like spiders and bad weather will not prevent serious problems if someone has a real mental health issue.