D&D 5E Ravenloft= Meh

[MechaPilot]

... which is only possible because of said nostalgia.

No. I'm sorry, but there are other reasons that people purchase things. Nostalgia is really only relevant if WotC plans to only sell things to people who have already bought D&D in the past. So far as I recall, I believe there was a statement by WotC that they intended for D&D to be a lot of people's introduction to the TTRPG hobby. By necessity, that means also selling their products to people who have never played D&D before.

In addition to nostalgia, you also have personal preference: some people just like the gothic horror genre and might try the Ravenloft setting if they were already fans of games like WoD or Vampire.

 

[Morrus]

The 3rd edition Ravenloft books published under the Sword and Sorcery brand covered details like this for each domain.

They covered the wallpaper used in each domain?

Just to clarify, your criticism is that they have the wrong wallpaper in CoS, and they detailed the correct wallpaper in the 3E books for the setting?

 

[Remathilis]

On a side note, Ravenloft requires an attention to detail that I'm not really getting a good vibe from WotC on. In the first few pages of death's house, they've chosen some weird clothing standards and even mention houses having wallpaper. For those that may have forgotten, Barovia is supposed to be a medieval setting. While it is possible for wallpaper to exist in a medieval setting with some stretch of the imagination, the technology would be used for expensive wall prints, which really aren't the same thing as wallpaper as we know it.

Model houses and porcelain dolls fall into the same exact situation, so how is it that this row house has fineries that only royalty could afford? Barovians are notoriously suspicious of outsiders, and trade would be decidedly limited considering the brutal taxation of its citizens under Count Strahd. If they want Amityville horror, they need a Renaissance level setting at the very least. Ranting aside, I'm sure any of us could wing up an explanation, but these kinds of things are going to throw veterans off in the completely wrong way.

1. The Mists occasionally pull other elements from other worlds in to Ravenloft; and more than a few ended up in Barovia. It's possible the house came from another place by the Mists and dropped there, possibly hastening the descent of the family intro madness. In fact, the fact the house seems out of time and too fancy for its neighborhood are good indicators that something here isn't natural...
2. The 3e books, as good as they were at times, are probably persona non grata by the WotC staff. I'll be shocked if much of anything beyond i6 and some background names matter.
3. If you think a Victorian manner house in a Medieval Romanian village is poor attention to detail, don't ever read the canon-butchery that was Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Simply put, WotC isn't very concerned with keeping canon with the 2e setting, but it appears this time, they aren't actively trying to rewrite it.
4. Almost forgot; Death House was originally written as a separate adventure for the AL, but was put into CoS as a level 1-3 bridge afterwards. I expect its stylistical differences might come from that.
5. It's also possible that as part of the update to the lore, they are moving the setting level up some. Strahd dresses far more Renaissance then medieval, and one of the NPCs discussed in the Volos guide preview is a circus ringmaster, much more Victorian than true medieval. They might be playing a bit more fast and loose with mixing Gothic horror tropes into D&D. And Victorian era houses are the quintessential Haunted House, not medieval hovels.

 

[Jabborwacky]

No. I'm sorry, but there are other reasons that people purchase things. Nostalgia is really only relevant if WotC plans to only sell things to people who have already bought D&D in the past. So far as I recall, I believe there was a statement by WotC that they intended for D&D to be a lot of people's introduction to the TTRPG hobby. By necessity, that means also selling their products to people who have never played D&D before.

In addition to nostalgia, you also have personal preference: some people just like the gothic horror genre and might try the Ravenloft setting if they were already fans of games like WoD or Vampire.

Yes, the magic of franchising.

They covered the wallpaper used in each domain?

Just to clarify, your criticism is that they have the wrong wallpaper in CoS, and they detailed the correct wallpaper in the 3E books for the setting?

As I've stated elsewhere, I'm actually fine with them revising the story and setting. Remathilis made a really good point about how the stuff I mentioned could show up in Barovia.

To answer your question, ArtHaus (Ravenloft's 3rd party publisher at the time) based the details of each domain on a real world time period, which was done to help with the investigative aspect of the game. Investigation requires both noticing details and knowing when details are abnormal. ArtHaus didn't want to require their audience to own more than the core rulebook to play, so they made the setting such that our real world experiences and historical periods were general baselines.

For example, Barovia was assigned a "Medieval' technology level, so most native architecture and technology would fit what we historically think of medieval times. That way, if they ran into a clock tower, without the DM having to point anything out the players will be saying "yeah, that's kind of strange. Lets go check it out."

And no, they never mentioned wallpaper specifically.

 

[Wuzzard]

I recall playing through the original Ravenloft adventure, and I remember the dread and hopelessness. But it was the dread of continuing to play through the hopeless storyline, not some role played dread of the PC experiencing the horror.

I recall feeling that the game was pointless because nothing I ever did ever really mattered. I never saved anyone from their fate, and I never really knew what I was supposed to be doing except finding some way to kill an invincible vampire so I could get my PC the hell out of this place.

So, yeah, I don't recall it being fun.

That said, I'm still going to give it a go, because I wasnt in the DM seat at the time and that might have had a lot to do with my experience and from it my opinion. I'm going to find a way to make it fun.

However, I'm not encouraged by the preview adventure, because again *spoilers* you can't end up saving anyone but yourself. Even the dang house resets itself after you are done. (Except if you are perceptive enough as a player to find a way to help the "children". But I'm not expecting most players to think of that.)

I need a way for the players to come out of the adventure with a sense of success, not just feeling of relief that their character made it out alive.

Any thoughts?

 

[RotGrub]

On a side note, Ravenloft requires an attention to detail that I'm not really getting a good vibe from WotC on. In the first few pages of death's house, they've chosen some weird clothing standards and even mention houses having wallpaper. For those that may have forgotten, Barovia is supposed to be a medieval setting. While it is possible for wallpaper to exist in a medieval setting with some stretch of the imagination, the technology would be used for expensive wall prints, which really aren't the same thing as wallpaper as we know it.

Model houses and porcelain dolls fall into the same exact situation, so how is it that this row house has fineries that only royalty could afford? Barovians are notoriously suspicious of outsiders, and trade would be decidedly limited considering the brutal taxation of its citizens under Count Strahd. If they want Amityville horror, they need a Renaissance level setting at the very least. Ranting aside, I'm sure any of us could wing up an explanation, but these kinds of things are going to throw veterans off in the completely wrong way.

Barovia has certainly been detailed as medieval. In fact most domains have a real world anagram and technology level associated with it. Of course, I do recal a published 2e Ravenloft source book with a picture of a car... So at least WotC is being consistent in that regard.

With that said, WotC isn't revisiting the actual setting at all with their latest module. All they've done is create an adventure and nothing more. There are no rules for powers checks or anything like that.

 

[RotGrub]

And that stands true of any D&D game. If players don't feel like they can make a difference (in the way they intend), they typically stop trying, which is of course, the definition of hopelessness. But a lot of horror games aren't about hopelessness, they're about survival. You can be hopeless, and still want to survive and thus press on.

I don't think a sense of hopeless futility is good for any game. Even if you're running a setting that is designed to be a no-win scenario, you can still give the players minor victories. Being hopeless isn't about lacking all hope. It's about having hope, and shattering it. If you run a hopeless setting, you WANT the players to hope, that's what makes it truly hopeless.

I agree, I'd add that survival isn't a theme either for Ravenloft either. The dark powers would rather keep the party alive and use them to torment the domain lords.

 

[Skyscraper]

Of all the old D&D settings TSR made one stands out for me with a resounding meh. That setting is Ravenloft. The whole fear/horror thin never really got to me in the 1st place and if you like that sort of stuff well Vampire/World of Darkness exists.

The problem is the name of the game. Dungeons and Dragons. Ravenloft did not seem to have much of either and I never really got into the whole Bram Stoker/ Frankenstein thing. Strahd has struck me as one of the most boring cliched villains of all time in a D&D universe. Even his book I Strahd was not that good all those years ago as a teenager. If you think the mists of Ravenloft are scary how about the wastelands of Athas and The Dragon who ws guilty of attempted genocide.

I just associate RL with a emo Goth chick calling herself Raven or some crap "Its just a phase Mom". On the pluse side there are no Kender. Dragonlance and Ravenloft might be a toss up between the 2 worst D&D settings. Even Birthright was more interesting IMHO and almost no one played that it seems.

(I haven't read beyond page 1 of this thread.)

While I see your point, I like that D&D adventures (/paths) offer very niche experiences. I prefer that tenfold to uniformized adventures that are all based on the same base setting/environment, more or less. This of course means that some settings will be more to the liking of some players, than others. Then you can pick and choose.

As for as RL goes specifically, I happen to love it. If it's not for you, that's fine also. While my players keep a humoristic edge to all games, I'm still capable as DM to simultaneously provide a hint of horror to my games - and I usually do. And RL helped me along the way. (Call of Cthulhu also had a say...) I'm looking forward to seeing the 5E take on RL and I hope that the other adventure settings are also very clearly distinctive.

 

[Jabborwacky]

(I haven't read beyond page 1 of this thread.)

While I see your point, I like that D&D adventures (/paths) offer very niche experiences. I prefer that tenfold to uniformized adventures that are all based on the same base setting/environment, more or less. This of course means that some settings will be more to the liking of some players, than others. Then you can pick and choose.

As for as RL goes specifically, I happen to love it. If it's not for you, that's fine also. While my players keep a humoristic edge to all games, I'm still capable as DM to simultaneously provide a hint of horror to my games - and I usually do. And RL helped me along the way. (Call of Cthulhu also had a say...) I'm looking forward to seeing the 5E take on RL and I hope that the other adventure settings are also very clearly distinctive.

On a side note, I totally want to see a GM roll on a table for underground hazards for the Death House basement and land on "natural gas pocket." My inner child wants to see Death House fly free into the night sky like a 90's action hero riding an explosion up an elevator shaft and then land perfectly upright in the exact spot it started in. I call this scenario "Roy Rocket Rowhouse."

Would any of the adventurers survive? Probably not. Who is this Roy fellow? Who cares! FLYING HOUSE!

If I didn't get this out here, I'd probably have done some insane thing in a game I'm currently playing as cathartic release. But yeah, the best D&D games are where the DM and players work together as opposed to both trying to strictly enforce their own kind of game.

 

[DeanP]

I like saying "Strahd." It really rolls off the tongue. Straaaaahd. This pleases me.

I'm less inclined to have Ravenloft an off plane vista, and instead, with a little tape, paint and nails, place it comfortably as a cursed land in Blackmoor on Oerth (World of Greyhawk). However, upon reading the product, I could change my mind.

I think horror can work in D&D to some degree, but you have to give it the personal touch. Read the original Vampire: The Masquerade for inspiration, a masterpiece on personal horror.

It's not a question of "I can smite a werewolf as easily as an orc." It's "the werewolf is my father, whom I love." It's "My closest friend is the vampire and I swore an oath to my god to destroy the vampire." That's when it starts to strike home. It takes some patience and pre-planning, you have to lay the ground work, build the connections, and account for mystery ruining spells and items; which is why it's more effective at lower level play than high level. It can still work with higher levels, but it's harder to pull off.

I'm working on a horror themed sub-plot. One of the PCs in my chronicle rescued a young girl from a coven of hags in the Feywild, knowing the hags were eating children, it was a pretty significant action and victory. Of course, he doesn't know she's a hag-child. I'm going to build the "father-daughter" relationship over the course of the campaign, and then when she comes of age...yeah, shock, awe and certainly horror. I know my player well, and this will certainly freak him out.