Re-introducing reversible spells

[Hashmalum]

I've come up with a couple of feats to bring back the concept of "reversible spells" from earlier editions of D&D. I would appreciate any help balancing them. In particular, the second one seems too strong, in spite of the loss of many of the reversed spells to lack of conversion.

Alignment-Substituted Spell [Metamagic]
Some spells exist in multiple versions, one for each alignment. Knowing one allows you to extrapolate the others.
Prerequisites: Knowledge of one or more spells from one or more of the lists below, Spellcraft 6 ranks, any other metamagic feat.
Benefit: An alignment-substituted spell becomes another spell from the same group instead, whether or not you know that spell (although you still must have it on your class list). Divine spellcasters still can not cast spells whose alignment is opposed to their own or their deity's. An alignment-substituted spell uses up a spell slot of its normal level.

Detection Spell Group
detect law
detect good
detect evil
detect chaos

Protection Spell Group
protection from law
protection from good
protection from evil
protection from chaos

Circle Group
magic circle against law
magic circle against good
magic circle against evil
magic circle against chaos

Smite Spell Group
chaos hammer
unholy blight
holy smite
order's wrath

Wall Spell Group (from Magic of Faerun)
wall of chaos
wall of evil
wall of good
wall of law

Dispel Spell Group
dispel law
dispel good
dispel evil
dispel chaos

Word Spell Group
word of chaos
blasphemy
holy word
dictum

Aura Spell Group
cloak of chaos
unholy aura
holy aura
shield of law

Reversible Spell [Metamagic]
You know how to gain more use from some spells you know by reversing them.
Prerequisites: Knowledge of one or more reversible spells from the list below, Spellcraft 6 ranks, at least one other metamagic feat.
Benefit: You may reverse any spell that appears in either colum below. A reversed spell becomes the other spell on the same line instead, whether or not you know that spell (although you still must have it on your class list). Divine spellcasters still can not cast spells whose alignment is opposed to their own or their deity's. A reversed spell uses up a spell slot of its normal level.

First Form/Second Form
enlarge/reduce
locate object/obscure object
water breathing/air breathing*
remove curse/bestow curse
dream/nightmare
transmute rock to mud/transmute mud to rock
stone to flesh/flesh to stone
antipathy/sympathy
imprisonment/freedom
bless/bane
cure light wounds/inflict light wounds
cure moderate wounds/inflict moderate wounds
cure serious wounds/inflict serious wounds
cure critical wounds/inflict critical wounds
heal/harm
raise dead/slay living
resurrection/destruction
remove fear/cause fear
heat metal/chill metal
neutralize poison/poison
remove blindness/deafness/blindness/deafness
cure disease/contagion

*From Savage Species.

Edited: Raised Spellcraft req to 6, required new spell to be on class list, added circle group containing the various magic circle against X spells which I left out by mistake (oops!) in the first post.

Edited again: Added smite group (holy smite, etc.), which was left out by mistake (d'oh!).

 

[fba827]

Hmm, interesting ideas!

A couple things may need a second look:

* the reference to "can cast it even if it is not on your spell list" makes me a little uneasy. While I can't think of a specific reference at this point and time, I would be a little uneasy with someone who would not be able to know a spell suddenly able to cast it (this is just a personal preference sort of thing though)

* the prerequisites. I'd move spellcraft up to at least 5+. This way, you'd have to be at least 3rd caster level (able to cast 2nd level spells if you're one of the primary caster classes). The way it is now, someone who is still able to cast 1st level spells would be able to use it... just doesn't sit right with me I guess.

* the list of reversable spells -- is it practical (seriously, am asking you, personally) for you to be updating this list everytime new spells come out? Maybe an easier thing to do would be to say that you can learn any spell that your known spell would be able to counter (as per the spell description) ? While that will not get everything you have listed in this group, that may be less "paper work" for you over all in the long run.


anyway, just my rambles.

 

[Hashmalum]

* the prerequisites. I'd move spellcraft up to at least 5+. This way, you'd have to be at least 3rd caster level (able to cast 2nd level spells if you're one of the primary caster classes). The way it is now, someone who is still able to cast 1st level spells would be able to use it... just doesn't sit right with me I guess.

The reason I set the Spellcraft req where it is is that in previous editions of D&D (where the idea came from), characters could use the reversed forms of spells from the get-go. OTOH I just noticed that the other metamagic req goes against this, at least for nonhumans (since they only get one feat at 1st level). So at this point I'm not sure.

* the list of reversable spells -- is it practical (seriously, am asking you, personally) for you to be updating this list everytime new spells come out? Maybe an easier thing to do would be to say that you can learn any spell that your known spell would be able to counter (as per the spell description) ? While that will not get everything you have listed in this group, that may be less "paper work" for you over all in the long run.

It doesn't sound that impractical, really. Spells usually aren't created in matching pairs of opposite effects of equal level, unless they're conversions of a reversible spell from earlier editions of the game. And maintaining that feature from earlier editions was the point of doing the feats in the first place. So the number of updates should be quite manageable, especially if you're fairly picky (like I am) about what new spells you allow into the game.

I did think of the spell countering thing, but not only does it not get all the spells it (IMO) ought to get, but it has three problems:

(1) It's potentially abusable. Consider the case of a sorcerer who has the Reverse Spell feat and creates his own spells--all of which are specified as being able to counter at least one other spell. He's effectively doubled his spells known for one feat. The feat wasn't intended to provide that many extra spells.

(2) It doesn't work well with spells that counter multiple other spells. Deeper darkness counters all light spells of equal or lower level, of which there are at least three that I know of: light, daylight, and continual flame. Again, I didn't intend it to provide that much of a bonus. It could get even worse if you create spells whose sole purpose is to counter other spells, like those Magic: the Gathering spell adaptations that Michael Morris was doing.

(3) It adds a few spell pairs that aren't true opposites. Black blade of disaster (from Magic of Faerun) can be countered by gate, but it is in no way an opposite of gate; in fact, it's basically a blade-shaped planar opening, more like a modified gate in this sense than a true opposite.

 

[Arc]

I had some of the same ideas when I was working on creating a true "Anti-Paladin", but I think this method really works well to make it balanced. Spellcraft 4 is a bit too low, I'd say making it around 6 or 8 keeps 1st level human sorcerors from being able to effectively double their spellcasting list (if they only know 2 spells, that can easily become 4, or even 8). All around a great method for keeping some great 2nd edition feel that works in 3e.

 

[Hashmalum]

Spellcraft 4 is a bit too low, I'd say making it around 6 or 8 keeps 1st level human sorcerors from being able to effectively double their spellcasting list (if they only know 2 spells, that can easily become 4, or even 8).

Well, there's only one reversible 1st level sorcerer/wizard spell pair on the list (enlarge/reduce), but if some more reversible spells were converted from 2nd Edition this would indeed be a problem. So I took your advice and set the Spellcraft req to 6 ranks (which is higher than Energy Substitution, but the difference between a substituted and a reversed spellis is greater IMO).

I also ditched the ability to cast spells not on your class list because I realized that it would lead to arcane casters being able to cast remove blindness/deafness (with greater efficiency than divine casters, even!) and cure disease, which I did not consider desirable.

One other thing occurred to me: as I have it written now, I don't see any reason why a cleric couldn't take Reversible Spell and gain the ability to spontaneously cast both cure and inflict spells (although admittedly they wouldn't really derive much else in the way of benefit from the feat--I suppose it would also be useful when the cleric reached epic levels and took Spontaneous Domain Access). Using the feat with your spontaneously cast spells does increase their casting time, though. Does this make the feat too powerful?

All around a great method for keeping some great 2nd edition feel that works in 3e.

Thank you I've done some other "2E feel" feats, but I'll wait to post them until I get a look at 3.5E and see if they need any changes.