Re-visiting the Tiers

[KarinsDad]

[MENTION=2067]
Say I am running a game for friends who aren't hardcore gamers who want to kick ass without worrying about death around every corner; they want to play heroes like in the movies not dungeon survival horror...
...and if starting at level 5 were the way the rules let us accomplish that...
...then the players have a really sharp learning curve to overcome with the character options (unless you make the first 5 levels really simple...in which case there isn't a sense of character advancement).

One could start at level 2, or level 3, or level 4. If learning curve is really a problem for 5th level in a 1st level is a street rat type of game, then back it down a bit. The DM can also make challenges less challenging. 3rd level PCs can usually take a few hits, so throw 1st level foes against them.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

My real suggestion has already been well-covered by Mouseferatu and delericho. I think any focus on tiers is basically a focus on raw power level, and thus time spent in the "mundane" and "epic" ends of it should be relatively brief compared to the heart of adventuring, which is "heroic" and "paragon". That gives 20 levels of "sweet spot" right in the middle of the game, clearly called out, but with enough levels on either end to play around there if you want. And it is just flat more straight-forward than kludging "zero level" or other early stuff before level 1 or completely and sharply changing the rules at "epic".

In such a framework, there is some natural growth from grit to wahoo, but ideally that kind of tone is set by other things than power level--optional rules, restricted abilities, campaign restrictions, etc. Which brings me to my fun suggestion:




Steal the color coding from Burning Wheel, but use the prismatic colors to make it more D&D. In BW, "black" is mundane, "gray" is legendary, and "white" is supernatural. A handful of key rules change at each color, and when the colors interact, it is very difficult for someone on a lower rung to handle it. (If a dragon with "gray" claws gets after you, your "black" armor might as well be rags, for example.) It doesn't necessarily need to be that stark over seven prismatic colors, but the same principle applies. Roughly, the colors would represent a tone over the entire campaign:

1. Red - extreme gutter rat grit. Chances to hit are often lousy, getting to zero hit points is dead as a doornail, and Fantasy Vietnam would be paradise in comparison. There is no raise dead.
2. Orange - standard Fantasy Vietnam. If you live long enough to get some power, you might just make it.
3. Yellow - last appearance of traditional save or die in this hierarchy. Things are generally rough, but you've got a few outs to mitigate (something like slight fudge, handful narrative "plot points", etc. depending upon how you want to play it) This is basically Orange with an occasionally benevolent DM or universe when things get the worst.
4. Green - SoD still present, but muted and less frequent. Chances to hit/succeed have generally hit the solid 65% area. Foolish play or bad luck can still get you killed readily enough, but for the first time in this color scheme, you feel somewhat in control of your own destiny--instead of clinging to it while it tries to throw you off. This plays a lot like what 2E-style implied it did (not what 2E mechanics actually did, mind).
5. Blue - You've got bonus hit point (say Con score) at start, generally can get any equipment you need with modest effort (which sometimes means you don't need it at all), and never completely run out of resources. Last point at which character death from random chance is at all likely, and resurrection isn't that hard.
6. Indigo - You've got ways to outright nullify bad effects--"hero points' to make automatic saving throws (on the rare occasions when the playing field already tilted in your favor fails you), resurrection is a single spell away, and if you are playing Boromir, you break off the 6 or 7 arrows and grin before you kill all the orcs.
7. Violet - completely wahoo. You die when it is time to die, and not a moment before. (This is explicit mechanically. Going to zero hit points leaves you unconcious, captured, etc.--always. There are no "death saves" or "dying" conditions.)

I might be somewhat off on the specifics, but that gives an idea of what I mean.
In some games, characters are able to change colors on select abilities as the game progresses. So you might have an otherwise "yellow" character who develops some "green" or even "blue" magic. If you want a "red" world but with heroes a "cut above", you make them "orange" or "yellow". This provides yet another way to differentiate characters without piling on plusses.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Add me to the Mouseferatu / delericho faction who likes the 1-5, 6-15, 16-25, 26-30 split (and who has argued for this in several previous threads.)

The Commoner/Adventurer/Mundane tier really only needs 5 levels, especially if these five levels equate to the starter set they put out. Likewise... the Epic tier (when the PCs become god-like or start the path to fulfilling their epic destiny) should be a faster climax to the end of their career.

Heroic and Paragon are the two tiers of your 3E/4E power level of adventuring. 20 levels total. That's pretty much all you need. And it allows you to snip off the 5 levels on either end fairly simply, if you don't desire to have PCs "gritty" or "god-like".

And as has been written before (by Crazy Jerome I think?), I'd also go with re-numbering the levels at each tier so that the numbers remain more compressed, like they're trying to do with the numbers within the game itself. So you'd have Adventurer Tier levels A1-A5, Heroic Tier levels H1-H10 (aka 6-15), Paragon Tier's P1-P10 (aka 16-25), and Epic Tier E1-E5 (aka 26-30).

 

[Crazy Jerome]

And as has been written before (by Crazy Jerome I think?), I'd also go with re-numbering the levels at each tier so that the numbers remain more compressed, like they're trying to do with the numbers within the game itself. So you'd have Adventurer Tier levels A1-A5, Heroic Tier levels H1-H10 (aka 6-15), Paragon Tier's P1-P10 (aka 16-25), and Epic Tier E1-E5 (aka 26-30).

Wasn't me. I've also previously advocated the 1-5, 6-15, 16-25, 26-30 split. I prefer roughly that proportion, though I'm not that hung up on the actual numbers. I think there should not generally be "dead levels". So the numbers of levels should divide up the abilities gained in some kind of reasonably smooth flow. 5 levels of the short tiers and 10 in the longer ones does seem like a good ballpark.

I have separately suggested that one way to compress a lot of levels, if they want an even proportion, is to use tiers as something you hit and start over, similar to what you have here but going up to max each time. I believe I used a variation of the prismatic colors for that one, too. Of course, your level range would then only be 5 to 10 in each tier. The idea there would be not that your numbers change, but that what the numbers mean changes. Of course, that's tricky to do in a d20+mod versus DC system--so you'd have some number changes inevitably.

For example, say for sake of argument that you have 5 levels per tier, and the tiers are the prismatic colors, finally followed by "white" for a 40 level range. (This is not compatible with my previous post.) You start out "red" and can get to level 5. Numbers generally scale very slowly, but when you make "orange" you get more damage, a bonus to saving throws, extra options, etc. Heck, you might only get +1 to attacks per "tier" instead of by level. (I'd make it +2 in such a system to make it more stark.) In some ways, this would mimic early D&D, where fighters got +2 bumps more rarely, instead of something every level. Casters don't get another spell level until they hit a new tier, but they gain more spells of their current tier as they gain levels. Effect of level-based spells tops out at level 5 of that tier. Trying to use magic items more than 1 tier above you can get you fried or at least ignored--the equipment doesn't even recognize you as a valid user.

There are probably some interesting things you can do with multiclassing in such a system.

That's just a flavorful way of breaking the game into manageable chunks by power level. Doing that, I'd still prefer to distinguish the grit to wahoo scale by something other than straight power level--at least somewhat.

 

[kitsune9]

I prefer 3 tiers, maybe a 4th for mundane (as decribed up thread). One idea I've been mulling is to have each of the 3 tiers correspond to the number of d20s to roll on attacks/skills, take highest, to model the PCs increased ability, but keeping the numbers down:

Heroic - 1d20
Paragon - 2d20
Epic - 3d20

I haven't done the math to know if it is a worthwhile idea or not, but it would certainly give a different feel to each of the tiers.

Interesting, but you'd be skewing the probabilities toward keeping high numbers and discarding low numbers. For example, if I throw 3d20 and in order for me to accept an automatic 1, then all my dice needs to be 1. This is a 1 in 8000 shot whereas my chance of getting a 20 on any of the of the 3d20 and keeping it is around 15%. Overall, the chance of failure at anything is lower. This is cool for players, but monsters get more attacks (claw, claw, bite for example and monsters outnumber the players often) so if they get the same play, then they'll get to crit far more often than players will.

 

[kitsune9]

1. Red - extreme gutter rat grit. Chances to hit are often lousy, getting to zero hit points is dead as a doornail, and Fantasy Vietnam would be paradise in comparison. There is no raise dead.
2. Orange - standard Fantasy Vietnam. If you live long enough to get some power, you might just make it.
3. Yellow - last appearance of traditional save or die in this hierarchy. Things are generally rough, but you've got a few outs to mitigate (something like slight fudge, handful narrative "plot points", etc. depending upon how you want to play it) This is basically Orange with an occasionally benevolent DM or universe when things get the worst.
4. Green - SoD still present, but muted and less frequent. Chances to hit/succeed have generally hit the solid 65% area. Foolish play or bad luck can still get you killed readily enough, but for the first time in this color scheme, you feel somewhat in control of your own destiny--instead of clinging to it while it tries to throw you off. This plays a lot like what 2E-style implied it did (not what 2E mechanics actually did, mind).
5. Blue - You've got bonus hit point (say Con score) at start, generally can get any equipment you need with modest effort (which sometimes means you don't need it at all), and never completely run out of resources. Last point at which character death from random chance is at all likely, and resurrection isn't that hard.
6. Indigo - You've got ways to outright nullify bad effects--"hero points' to make automatic saving throws (on the rare occasions when the playing field already tilted in your favor fails you), resurrection is a single spell away, and if you are playing Boromir, you break off the 6 or 7 arrows and grin before you kill all the orcs.
7. Violet - completely wahoo. You die when it is time to die, and not a moment before. (This is explicit mechanically. Going to zero hit points leaves you unconcious, captured, etc.--always. There are no "death saves" or "dying" conditions.)

There you go. I get to make six clones of my character. The Dungeon Master is my Friend. Trust the Dungeon Master. Exploring dungeons while happy is mandatory. Find those Commy Mutant Orcs and eliminate them.

 

[the Jester]

Let's drop tiers as a level-based "thing" and keep it for describing (not prescribing) playstyles.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

There you go. I get to make six clones of my character. The Dungeon Master is my Friend. Trust the Dungeon Master. Exploring dungeons while happy is mandatory. Find those Commy Mutant Orcs and eliminate them.

Hey, before there was the computer, there was prismatic sphere and prismatic wall. And before that, was Vance's "Excellent Prismatic Spray."

 

[kitsune9]

Hey, before there was the computer, there was prismatic sphere and prismatic wall. And before that, was Vance's "Excellent Prismatic Spray."

Yep, you're right! Good call!

 

[Mattachine]

Let's drop tiers as a level-based "thing" and keep it for describing (not prescribing) playstyles.

I feel the same way: tiers would be a great way to define rules mechanics for different types of play, whether 7 tiers as described above, or just 3 or 4.