Reach Weapon and Hold the Line

[Felnar]

It's muddied by the 'immediately before the charge attack is resolved' clause

It gets even harder if we do this:
-Hyp.

ya, that is a problem...

anyone care to tackle my side question?
Side question: if you ready a spear (not a reach weapon) to receive a charge, with what attack could do double damage? IE. How else other than using a reach weapon to provoke a movement AoO, can you make an attack for double damage?
Is readying to receive the same as to readying an action to attack when someone becomes adjacent?

 

[Artoomis]

Whereas your refusal to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong is too much for me. Turn about is fair play, after all.

Except that my position is that we are BOTH RIGHT and either way is within the rules. Your position is that ONLY YOU can be right.

That's why I give up on this one.

 

[Nail]

I give up. You guys are simply too stubborn for me. Your refusal to admit that another point of view could also be legitimate it simply too much for me.

Amazing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's steer clear of speculations about one anothers' personal characteristics, folks.

Keep to the discussion, rather than the discussers.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[billd91]

Whereas your refusal to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong is too much for me. Turn about is fair play, after all.

Go back and read his posts. He HAS done so. He's merely holding out the option, one that I agree with, that there is a principle here being ignored by pedantic readings of the rules. And that principle is that it is movement that causes the AoO and the difference between whether the AoO is taken when leaving the threatened square or entering the threatened square is just how the principle is put into game rules.

 

[Stalker0]

While I was unsure in the beginning of this debate, I'm going with the 2 AOO's side.

The rules for the 1 AOO for movement talk about leaving threatened squares. Therefore, other types of movement AOO's do not apply for that. So hold the line gives you an AOO for charging, and you recieve your normal AOO for someone move in on you when you have a reach weapon.

Also, there's the reasonability argument. Hold the Line, being a feat, should give a general increase to the character. It grants an AOO to people with non-reach weapons, and grants an additional AOO to those with reach weapons.

And considering I would think the vast majority of people who take combat reflexes in the first place weild reach weapons, that's its expected to give a benefit to those weilding reach weapons.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And that principle is that it is movement that causes the AoO and the difference between whether the AoO is taken when leaving the threatened square or entering the threatened square is just how the principle is put into game rules.

Then maybe YOU can explain how crawling is not movement.

 

[billd91]

Then maybe YOU can explain how crawling is not movement.

I think it is movement. But in a round in which a PC crawls, stands up, and then walks away, that's 3 different modes of doing things, potentially 3 different opportunities for AoO. That's distinct from entering a threatened square and leaving a threatened square all by the same movement action and exact same movement mode.
The movement from crawling should be considered distinct from movement by walking away because it must be broken up by a different action - standing up.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Charging isn't different than normal movement?

Charging vs. normal movement:
1. full-round action vs move action
2. minimum 10ft
3. must be in a straight line
4. can't go through allies
5. -2 on AC
6. No difficult terrain
7. no obstacles
8. Requires line of sight to your opponent
9. must be directly toward the designated opponent

Now constrast crawling with normal movement:
1. moves 5ft
2. provokes an AoO at any point during your crawl (not just leaving a square, but also entering)

Just counting them up we get 9 vs. 2. Crawling is MUCH MORE like normal movement than charging. The difference is dramatic. Please continue to try to explain how charging is more like "movement" than crawling.

 

[billd91]

Charging isn't different than normal movement?

Charging vs. normal movement:
1. full-round action vs move action
2. minimum 10ft
3. must be in a straight line
4. can't go through allies
5. -2 on AC
6. No difficult terrain
7. no obstacles
8. Requires line of sight to your opponent
9. must be directly toward the designated opponent

Now constrast crawling with normal movement:
1. moves 5ft
2. provokes an AoO at any point during your crawl (not just leaving a square, but also entering)

Just counting them up we get 9 vs. 2. Crawling is MUCH MORE like normal movement than charging. The difference is dramatic. Please continue to try to explain how charging is more like "movement" than crawling.

I find myself thinking back on a Knights of the Dinner Table in which they form a book club to discuss a work of fantasy literature. Brian trashes it as unrealistic because the things the characters do don't conform to the rules of Hackmaster.

My 7-year old daughter can see that rushing at someone with a weapon is more similar to advancing on the target at a walk than crawling. But because the rules of charging come with more caveats than the rules for crawling, suddenly charging is less similar. This is just getting silly.