Reach Weapon and Hold the Line

[Nail]

You won't find a definitve answer in the RAW here, ...

I disagree. The core RAW says when you get an AoO (moving out of a threatened square, FEX). The non-core RAW says you get an AoO when charging into a threatened square. Those are two different events. Seems pretty clear.

Moreover, it doesn't seem unreasonable that a feat grants an extra AoO opportunity in restricted circumstances...as well as requiring another feat (Combat Reflexes) to take advantage of.

...you'll have to apply some common sense and decide if Hold the Line really creates a new opportunity ...

House rules are always an option.

The main problem being: My common sense may be different than yours. If so, it's often easiest/simplest/fairest to fall back on RAW. RAW says 2 AoOs (given Combat Reflexes, etc.).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm not certain the distinction is important at all. I see the distinction being when you get the AoO because of movement within the threatened area and it's movement in general that is the provocation.

If a character uses a move action to stand in a threatened square, it provokes an AoO. If that same character then leaves that threatened square, it also provokes an AoO. This is a similar situation to the Hold the Line situation above. In both cases, you have two different provocation qualifiers:

Hold the Line:
1. Is the character charging into a threatened area?
2. Is the character leaving a threatened area?
-if the character then again left a threatened area, 2. would not provoke an AoO again.

My example above:
1. Is the character standing up in a threatened area?
2. Is the character leaving a threatened area?
-if the character then again left a threatened area, 2. would not provoke an AoO again.

[edit for Nail]
...assuming only two characters in the fight for the purposes of example.

 

[Nail]

...from the same opponent, right Dr. A?

 

[billd91]

But "movement in general" is never a provocation.

AoOs a provoked by certain actions. Full stop.

• One of those actions is "leaving a threatened area". The caveat here is that you can provoke only once this way per round (per opponent).
  
• One of those actions is "charging into a threatened area of someone with the feat Hold the Line.

so.....two provocations, and 2 AoOs (so long as Combat Reflexes, yadda, yadda....)

Clearly, we approach the rules and interpretation of same in different ways. The way I see it, moving in a threatened space provokes the AoO and whether it occurs when the mover is leaving or, with hold the line, entering the square is a function of operationalizing that principle for game use.

So, yes, AoO is provoked by certain activities. Full stop. Movement is the activity. Leaving the threatened area is the operational feature of game play.

 

[Nail]

So, yes, AoO is provoked by certain activities. Full stop. Movement is the activity. Leaving the threatened area is the operational feature of game play.

So.....in your game, moving within a threatened square (not entering or leaving), is enough to provoke an AoO?

....you might understand where a "yes" answer to the above will take us......

 

[Artoomis]

...House rules are always an option. ...

Don't take this conversation down the road of saying rules interpretations are house rules - as in they are not the "rules."

There are two very legitimate ways of viewing the rules here:

1. Very strictly, no room for intent or interpretation In which case, the Hold the Line AoO opportunity is completely different from the leving a threatened square AoO opportunity. In this case there are two distinctly seperate "opportunites."

2. A little more loosely - looking at intent. Hold the Line appears to be extending movement-related AoOs from leaving a threatened square to include entering a threatened square. In this case they both fall into one opportunity - one that was moving out of threatened squares but is expended due to the Hold the Line feat.

I prefer number two, but both are somewhat reasonable.

 

[billd91]

If a character uses a move action to stand in a threatened square, it provokes an AoO. If that same character then leaves that threatened square, it also provokes an AoO. This is a similar situation to the Hold the Line situation above. In both cases, you have two different provocation qualifiers:

If the character uses a move action but stands still in the threatened square (doing something else that is a move-equivalent action but not actually moving but that is defined as still threatening an AoO) and then moves out, then yes, I agree these are two different provocations. But notice that only one of them involves actually moving.
In the case of a charge's movement provoking more than 1 AoO because one is described as leaving the square and another is described as entering a square, both are ultimately provoked as part of the same movement of the charging character. They may even be because of the same step from one square to the next.

 

[billd91]

So.....in your game, moving within a threatened square (not entering or leaving), is enough to provoke an AoO?

....you might understand where a "yes" answer to the above will take us......

How is a character staying in the same square moving? He's not. Movement occurs when someone goes from one square to another in the abstract tactical play of D&D. Taking a move action to accomplish some other action that is not necessarily a standard action does not constitute movement. Staying in the same square and not leaving it is not moving.

 

[Nail]

Don't take this conversation down the road of saying rules interpretations are house rules - as in they are not the "rules."

Okay. And I'm sorry if I'm treading on your toes.

In this case, the RAW clarity, intent, and game-balance all seem to be aligned. So your option #2 seems unnessary. YMMV.

 

[Nail]

How is a character staying in the same square moving? He's not. Movement occurs when someone goes from one square to another in the abstract tactical play of D&D.

Okay, good! Now: Does movement into a threatened square provoke an AoO in your game (sans feats)?