Reach weapons, large creatures and 5 ft. steps

[Iku Rex]

When a Large creature wielding a longspear (15-20 ft. reach, can't attack from 5-10 ft.) is fighting another Large creature, how far apart do they have to be for the longspear wielder to attack unhindered?

If they're standing next to each other the reach fighter can't use the longspear - fine. But what if he takes a 5 ft. step back? The parts of his opponent occupying the rearmost squares is now 15 ft. away.

Can he make the attack?
If so, does the target get cover from himself? After all, the attack has to go through an "invulnerable" square.
Can the target "squeeze" into the two foremost squares and thus stay out of reach? If so, when does he have to make the decision to do so?

Edit: Corrected unimportant 3.0 mistake.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

As long as any part of the creature is in the threatened area, it can be attacked. No, it's doesn't give itself cover, and neither can it "squeeze" into a smaller area to be out of reach -- it's considered to occupy the entire space.

 

[Iku Rex]

As long as any part of the creature is in the threatened area, it can be attacked. No, it's doesn't give itself cover, and neither can it "squeeze" into a smaller area to be out of reach -- it's considered to occupy the entire space.

That's how we did it last night, but I'm not sure if it's the correct (and logical) way of doing it.

Cover (SRD): "To determine whether your target has cover from your [reach weapon], choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."

In my opinion, an attack on a creature occupying more than one square should take into consideration which square you're attacking when determining miss chance, cover and other effects. In this case the attack is through a square occupied by a creature, and thus the target creature gets cover. (Even though it's the same creature.)

And I don't see why you can't "squeeze" into the two foremost squares? (The main question is when you have to do it.)

 

[hong]

I'm "giving cover to myself" RIGHT NOW, IKYWIM etc etc etc.


Hong "this is why I never leave the house" Ooi

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

In my opinion, an attack on a creature occupying more than one square should take into consideration which square you're attacking when determining miss chance, cover and other effects. In this case the attack is through a square occupied by a creature, and thus the target creature gets cover. (Even though it's the same creature.)

And I don't see why you can't "squeeze" into the two foremost squares? (The main question is when you have to do it.)

Well, if you're trying to apply logic -- real logic, not rules logic -- how does a creature give cover to itself? Seems a little silly, doesn't it?

And if a creature can squeeze into half it's space to avoid an attack, then you can never attack a large or larger creature without either surrounding it or using a reach weapon -- if a fighter attacks the ogre with his longsword, the ogre will just be "in the back half" of his square and out of the fighter's reach (since the 5' the fighter threatens will then be "unoccupied" by that logic).

Taking rules logic to extremes can result in situations that they were never intended to create -- I think this is one of those situations.

 

[Centaur]

I can't see the squezing into less space ever working, but...

The creature giving cover to itself hwen your trying to attack into the square behind makes PERFECT sense.

If the spear is so long that I can't attack the head of the horse from my position, but I can attack the rump, it is going to be more difficult. With the angle that I am attacking at and the movement of the horses head, I will find it very hard to get a telling shot.

Now obviously, the horse is not an acordian, so it cannot squeeze into one 5' square from it's normal 2. But it should be able to give itself cover in the described situtation.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[hong]

I can't see the squezing into less space ever working, but...

Bah. That's what vaseline was invented for!

If the spear is so long that I can't attack the head of the horse from my position, but I can attack the rump, it is going to be more difficult. With the angle that I am attacking at and the movement of the horses head, I will find it very hard to get a telling shot.

There's a line here about not being able to see your head for your ass, but I'm not going to say it.


Hong "not touching that spear, either" Ooi

 

[Philip]

The whole cover issue doesn't matter, because if the attack misses due to the AC bonus provided by cover, it hits the cover instead. And if the creature is using itself as cover.....

 

[Iku Rex]

Well, if you're trying to apply logic -- real logic, not rules logic -- how does a creature give cover to itself? .

I thought I'd already explained that?

Seems a little silly, doesn't it?

Not at all.

And if a creature can squeeze into half it's space to avoid an attack, then you can never attack a large or larger creature without either surrounding it or using a reach weapon -- if a fighter attacks the ogre with his longsword, the ogre will just be "in the back half" of his square and out of the fighter's reach (since the 5' the fighter threatens will then be "unoccupied" by that logic).

Wrong. The ogre can't move when it's not its turn. If the ogre is 10 ft away from the fighter it could (full) attack and then "squeeze" into the two rearmost squares (call it a 5 ft. step.) It suffers -4 to hit and -4 to AC until it's next action. In return, the fighter can't attack it with a longsword after a 5 ft. step, but he can still move up to it and attack. In the next round the ogre will have to "unsqueeze" (another 5 ft. step.) or keep his penalties.

 

[Iku Rex]

The whole cover issue doesn't matter, because if the attack misses due to the AC bonus provided by cover, it hits the cover instead.

So? If the attack hits the cover, the range is 10 ft. and the longspear deals no damage.