D&D 5E Reactions

[seebs]

There's only a contradiction if you insist on a formalized timing. There is no formalized timing in 5e, just the statements that reactions occur after their triggers unless they say otherwise. Since Uncanny Dodge does not say otherwise, it occurs after the hit is completed. Since shocking grasp prevents reactions on a hit, you cannot react to that hit (except with shield, which specifically says it interrupts it's own trigger and can negate it). There, no timing charts and everything works just fine. It's only when you apply a strict order of events that's absent in the rules that you end up with your contradictions.

That's not quite true. We have a Jeremy Crawford answer that uncanny dodge can be applied to a hit which would have knocked the rogue unconscious. Since unconscious creatures can't use reactions, you can use the reaction before the hit's effects are applied.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

That's not quite true. We have a Jeremy Crawford answer that uncanny dodge can be applied to a hit which would have knocked the rogue unconscious. Since unconscious creatures can't use reactions, you can use the reaction before the hit's effects are applied.

What you say is not quite true either.

Being knocked unconscious is a result of damage reducing your hit points to a particular value, not an effect of having been hit, so being able to reduce damage before the former (HP reduced to 0 by the resolved amount of damage) is not necessarily the same thing as being able to reduce damage before the latter (Attack roll scored a hit, so effects of being hit - such as damage - are certain to be resolved).

If, however, there were an attack that said "You take XdY [type] damage, and are knocked unconscious..." and Jeremy Crawford had said that Uncanny Dodge worked against that attack's damage, you'd have the support you claim to currently have.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's not quite true. We have a Jeremy Crawford answer that uncanny dodge can be applied to a hit which would have knocked the rogue unconscious. Since unconscious creatures can't use reactions, you can use the reaction before the hit's effects are applied.

Unless the attack that hits causes unconsciousness as part of the attack, there's no reason you can't use UD.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Or, imagine that Shocking Grasp actually required the hand to make full contact with the target to actually conduct the electricity -- I get how the "taze" effect of Shocking Grasp works -- but the steps of the attack have different phases: hit, then damage and/or effects. "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage. In addition to: over, above, or besides. Instead of: In place of, or rather than. The language of "In addition to" and "Instead of" implies that the effects occur at the same time, or subsequent to, the damage. Since Uncanny Dodge interrupts damage to halve it (because it would be healing damage if it occurred subsequent to the damage), and the effect of Shocking Grasp occurs simultaneous to the damage interrupted, the effect must be interrupted as well.

Again, (and my math was slightly off before), Shocking Grasp from a 5th level caster deals 2d8 damage (roughly 9 damage on average, not 6, as I had incorrectly stated before). Even so, the 5th level target burning their reaction for Uncanny Dodge only prevents 4 damage -- an amount that isn't going to break the game, and it prevents the target from using their reactions for anything else for the next round, such as an opportunity attack against the caster, if the caster is trying to flee. The caster is still able to avoid subsequent, more meaningful reactions, such as an opportunity attack, so everyone still has fun.

Imagining is fun, but isn't actually part of the rules, just like phases of attack aren't part of the rules.

 

[Ovinomancer]

For clarification purposes...

verb (used with object), dodged, dodging.
1.
to elude or evade by a sudden shift of position or by strategy:
to dodge a blow; to dodge a question.

verb (used without object), dodged, dodging.
3.
to move aside or change position suddenly, as to avoid a blow or get behind something.

noun
5.
a quick, evasive movement, as a sudden jump away to avoid a blow or the like.

What are we clarifying? That definition has nothing to do with the mechanics of Uncanny Dodge. Don't go down the road of definitions, else you'll start having to ask why dispel magic is really bad at dispelling magic.

 

[seebs]

Unless the attack that hits causes unconsciousness as part of the attack, there's no reason you can't use UD.

Well, that's the thing. Crawford agrees that an attack which knocks you out by doing hit point damage should not prevent uncanny dodge. But that implies that uncanny dodge is taking effect before the "hit" is completed.

 

[seebs]

What you say is not quite true either.

Being knocked unconscious is a result of damage reducing your hit points to a particular value, not an effect of having been hit, so being able to reduce damage before the former (HP reduced to 0 by the resolved amount of damage) is not necessarily the same thing as being able to reduce damage before the latter (Attack roll scored a hit, so effects of being hit - such as damage - are certain to be resolved).

If, however, there were an attack that said "You take XdY [type] damage, and are knocked unconscious..." and Jeremy Crawford had said that Uncanny Dodge worked against that attack's damage, you'd have the support you claim to currently have.

But the reduction in hit points is part of "the hit". And we've been told that the hit takes effect before uncanny dodge does. So the reduction in hit points should take effect before uncanny dodge gets to fire. Except when it doesn't.

There is a bit of an ambiguity here.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

There is a bit of an ambiguity here.

Exactly. It is because there is that ambiguity that the timing of Uncanny Dodge is unclear, and the rule of what to do with unclear reaction timing comes into play, and it then becomes clear that shocking grasp prevents use of Uncanny Dodge.

 

[spectacle]

Exactly. It is because there is that ambiguity that the timing of Uncanny Dodge is unclear, and the rule of what to do with unclear reaction timing comes into play, and it then becomes clear that shocking grasp prevents use of Uncanny Dodge.

But if you apply the same rule to the case of a Rogue being reduced to 0 hit points by a hit, won't it also imply that he can't use Uncanny Dodge?

 

[spectacle]

EDIT: Double post Here's a joke instead:

Two dragons walk into a bar... and one says, 'It's hot in here', and the other dragon says, 'Shut your mouth.'
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