Readied Actions and Timing

[ControlFreak]

Man, was tonight's game a mess! Anyway .. let me get past my lousy mood to ask a question that came up LOUDLY in the session:

PC Fighter: Initiative Bonus +6, Current Initiative 22
Monster: Initiative Bonus +4, Current Initiative 10

(Round 1)
Monster has readied action: if anyone shows their head around that corner I'm going to shoot them with my bow.

(Round 2)
PC Fighter leans around the corner to take an arrow shot
Monster shoots with readied action
PC Shoots and pulls back behind the corner

Here's the question:

According to the rules, the monster's initiative now matches the PC's initiative of 22. When 2 creatures have the same initiative, the bonus determines who goes first.

Does this mean that the PC will ALWAYS go before the monster? It seems to me that the new initiative of monster would be slightly before the PC. The monster would then be able to ready an action each round. Otherwise, it's impossible for someone to maintain an "overwatch" on someone with a higher initiative bonus ... ever!

What I ruled, was that regardless of bonuses, the monster (in this case) would go before that PC in the next round and be able to ready another action before the PC acted. It didn't make sense for the monster to only be able to attack the PC every other time he peeked out just because of that bonus.

(realize that the same thing could have easily occured the opposite way if the PC had the lower bonus and was trying to overwatch snipe)

Anyway .. I would like to know what people think.

Thanks,
ControlFreak

 

[The Sigil]

Interesting question...

[edit: see following post]

--The Sigil

 

[phillipjp]

The rules back your judgement. From the SRD:

For the rest of the fight, the combatant's initiative result is the count on which the combatant took the readied action, and the combatant acts immediately ahead of the combatant whose action triggered the readied action.

Pretty cut 'n dry.

 

[Artoomis]

Here is some advice that works well.

Assuming your situation.

Initiative 22: Ftr goes and takes action.
Initiative 10: Monster is aware of fighter and declares readied action - attack fighter if he pokes head around the corner.
Initiative 22.1: Monster reacts to foghter poking head around corner.
Initiative 22: Fighter pokes head around corner.

Note that the monster initiative is not 22, but 22.1. That's the advice - use fractional initiatives for what happens after a readied action is triggered.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

According to the rules, the monster's initiative now matches the PC's initiative of 22. When 2 creatures have the same initiative, the bonus determines who goes first.

Not quite right. To determine who goes first when initiative scores are tied, you check each combatants dexterity score (not modifier) and the one with the higher dex goes first. If the dex scores are the same, then you flip a coin.

In the case of a readied action, the one who readied an action interupts the other combatant. Change his init to the init of the one he interupted. He also goes before the other combatant.

Does this mean that the PC will ALWAYS go before the monster? It seems to me that the new initiative of monster would be slightly before the PC.

Nope. The init is the same and the monster always goes before the PC unless or until one of them does something that changes their init.

 

[Pielorinho]

I agree with what's been said so far, and I'll throw out a house rule that we use to make more sense of readied actions:

If Bob readies an action based on (for example) Sheila coming into range, and Sheila performs a full-attack action and then five-foot-steps into range, then Bob takes his readied action as normal, and his intiative changes to match Sheila's.

However, from then on, he goes immediately AFTER Sheila instead of immediately BEFORE. Our reasoning is that it was the very end of Sheila's turn that triggered Bob's action; letting Bob go immediately before Sheila essentially gives Bob two actions to mess with Sheila before she can respond, and that's no good.

It comes up rarely, but when it does come up, it's nice to have this house rule: it makes combat flow more intuitively.

Daniel

 

[Zenon]

PC Fighter: Initiative Bonus +6, Current Initiative 22
Monster: Initiative Bonus +4, Current Initiative 10

(Round 1)
Monster has readied action: if anyone shows their head around that corner I'm going to shoot them with my bow.

(Round 2)
PC Fighter leans around the corner to take an arrow shot
Monster shoots with readied action
PC Shoots and pulls back behind the corner

What did the fighter do in the 1st round? Did he act? (you are aware that you cannot ready an action outside of combat). I'm not being a jerk, I'm just asking if you knew this.

To your question:

Instead of the same init number, comparing dex scores and modifiers as suggested by the rules, our group decided it easier just to set the interupting action to the init count before (in your example, the monster would have been set to 23, one before the fighter).

It hasn't seemed to make that big of a change, or be that upsetting to anything. It also avoids the types of argument you got into.

 

[The Sigil]

Bad rule...

If Bob readies an action based on (for example) Sheila coming into range, and Sheila performs a full-attack action and then five-foot-steps into range, then Bob takes his readied action as normal, and his intiative changes to match Sheila's.

However, from then on, he goes immediately AFTER Sheila instead of immediately BEFORE. Our reasoning is that it was the very end of Sheila's turn that triggered Bob's action; letting Bob go immediately before Sheila essentially gives Bob two actions to mess with Sheila before she can respond, and that's no good.
[/B]

VERY bad house rule. The problem is that you punish Bob for using the "ready action" by denying him an attack. This seems to imply that a ready action should be handled like an AoO (where the order of actions is important - e.g., it matters when you're in melee whether you take a 5' step back then shoot your crossbow - no AoO - or shoot your crossbow then take a 5' step - which draws an AoO). In the case of readied actions, the order of actions a character takes shouldn't be important because of the way D&D models combat. Not to mention that he's already gone out on a limb when declaring the action he's going to react to... if Sheila doesn't move, for example, he loses the attack entirely.

Readied actions are a risky enough proposition as it is (you have to guess right on your opponent's action to get an attack). Putting in this house rule basically means that using the readied action is the same as forfeiting an attack, because the opponent can always choose to take the action that triggers your attack last, and thus essentially get two shots in on you before you can act (see below).

Bob's first action should have taken place before Sheila (whether it was on a low init in the previous round or a high init in the same round is irrelevant). He chooses to hold it until Sheila "sets it off." Sheila makes her move and "sets Bob off" (i.e., Bob attacks first, as is proper since his action came before hers) then Sheila makes her move (as is proper since her action came after).

If I use your house rule, however, the next round, Sheila gets to go first. That essentially gives Sheila two actions to mess with Bob before he can respond at that's no good (to use your wording).

Keep in mind that D&D is somewhat abstracted and movement and attacks take place (in theory) simultaneously. Otherwise you would have a "movement" phase for all characters followed by an "attack" phase. Instead, the model is "move and attack" or "attack and move" as you choose.

IOW, "movement" and "attack" are NOT two separate initiative counts... they don't occur at 22.2 and 22.1, they both literally occur simultaneously as far as initiative is concerned.

While it may seem intuitive to say "she attacked, then moved" and "the movement incurred the readied action so her next attack should come before his next attack" it doesn't really work that way. The combat round is not broken into "movement" and "attack" phases. If any portion of your actions during your initiative count triggers my readied action, I get to hop into the initiative order "ahead" of you in future rounds (by virtue of the tie-breaker).

You never want to punish a character for using good tactics. And it's a bit different when you are anticipating something versus trying to react on the fly with no anticipation. Think of it this way... Bob was ready for (was anticpating) Sheila's move, and as soon as she STARTS to make that step, he fires. Sheila then finishes her move. Bob then should act ahead of her the next round.

My 2 cents, and hope it made sense.

--The Sigil

 

[IceBear]

I understand your reasoning, but the rationale was that you end up with different outcomes depending on the order of things and we didn't like that. If Bob just finished attacking and then stepped around a corner, he can get nailed by a bunch of arrows from the readied archers. The next round he gets shot by more arrows from the same archers. If Bob moved first, then he would have gotten shot and then could have ducked back. Two different outcomes just because of the timing of the actions.

I understand that this is an artifact of using rounds and I'm ok with things most of the time.

In Daniel's example, Shelia doesn't get two rounds to mess with Bob. Remember, Shelia was busy doing something else with her Full Round Action and Bob's trigger was to shoot when he could see her. Basically, Shelia got an action and then Bob did, now back to Shelia.

It's not a VERY BAD houserule. It's a houserule that would rarely come up, in my opinion (it would only be triggered if for some reason the readying character chose to ready on the target's position instead of action and the target used a Full Round Action before moving), and when it does it seems to flow better with how I imagine the combat being played out. Shelia had basically finished her turn (5 seconds of the 6 second round) and then she was attacked by Bob. Now Bob is supposed to be acting before her (as opposed to Bob doing something just before she did).

IceBear

 

[the Jester]

Actually, iirc a readied action doesn't change your initiative. Delaying shifts your initiative down and lets you take a full round's worth of actions, readying lets you take a preoptive partial action.