reading attack vs invisible caster

[pvandyck]

In a recent combat, an Ogre mage was invisible, flying somewhere, and I wanted to ready an attack (with a magic missle spell of my own) to disrupt his casting. My ready trigger was to hit him with the MM when I saw him or heard him, with a clear intent expressed to my DM that I was trying to disrupt his casting (I was prepared that if he didn't cast, i would lose my action). Which of the following options do you think is correct?

1. He appears as he STARTS casting, allowing me to hit him with my readied action.

2. He appears as he FINISHES casting, so I have no chance of disrupting his casting.

3. He appears as he STARTS casting, but I can't get a MM spell off at him, unless it was quickened or something. Should'a used a bow.

4. He appears as he FINISHES casting, so even a bow wouldn't have helped.

5. He appears as he finishes casting, so even a bow wouldn't have helped, HOWEVER, you are allowed a heroic (30-40+ DC) listen check to hear his speaking words 50 feet up, then a semi-heroic (20-30+ DC) spot check to target his invisible "shape" (and still have 50% miss chance due to concealment). None of that's in the rules, really, it's just the DM being "nice".

As a DM, I was uncomfortable with basic (non-improved) invisibility trumping the "ready" action. Considering that the "ready" action is now almost the only way you can disrupt a caster, I was concerned about balance. However, I was a player at the time, and my DM decided to go with option #5.

I have done search for this on the board, but the only thing that comes close are discussions about readying vs stilled and quicked spells:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3354

What do people here think?

Thelbar

 

[gfunk]

I vote option #2. You have to actually "attack" something before your invisibility goes down -- intention is not sufficient.

Keep in mind that MM is useless against targets that have total concealment (i.e. invisibility). The base Listen DC for hearing someone casting a spell is 0. This is modified by -1 per 10 ft distance. To actually pinpoint the caster's location is +20 DC, or 20. If you passed this check, then you could fire into a square occupied by the caster (50% miss chance applies). If you hit, you force a concentration check which, if failed, disrupts the spell.

 

[Crothian]

Edited: After thinking it over it has to be 2. The damage has to be done for the invissiblity to wear off. If the spell gets countered and doesn't go off then no attack was made and the caster would still be invisible.

 

[IceBear]

I'm with gfunk. Remember, you could cast a summon monster spell to summon a monster to attack someone and remain invisible, so it's not the intent that causes the invisibility to drop.

You could have cast a spell at the square when you heard the spell being cast, or readied a counter spell.

IceBear

 

[shilsen]

5. He appears as he finishes casting, so even a bow wouldn't have helped, HOWEVER, you are allowed a heroic (30-40+ DC) listen check to hear his speaking words 50 feet up, then a semi-heroic (20-30+ DC) spot check to target his invisible "shape" (and still have 50% miss chance due to concealment). None of that's in the rules, really, it's just the DM being "nice".

Your DM is being harsh, and it's in the rules (DMG pg.78, Table 3-15). The listen check to detect an invisible creature in combat or speaking is DC 0. At a range of 50 ft, that would be DC 5. If you beat the DC by 20 (so make a DC of 25, in this situation), you have pinpointed the location of the caster & can attack (although he still has the full concealment advantage).

The above does not help you with Magic Missile since you can't target it at an invisible creature, even if you know where it is (no line of sight). I'd go with option 2 - He appears as he FINISHES casting, so I have no chance of disrupting his casting. With a bow, you could ready, make the listen check & shoot, hoping to beat the 50% miss chance.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I wanted to say what Shilsen said, but he (or she) said it so well that I will just agree.

 

[jontherev]

I'll just toss in another vote for Shilsen.

 

[hong]

1. He appears as he STARTS casting, allowing me to hit him with my readied action.

A readied action always goes before the triggering event, so (1) is the answer. As to exactly how you managed to get your spell off before he did, that's a sign not to think too hard about the game.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: reading attack vs invisible caster

A readied action always goes before the triggering event, so (1) is the answer. As to exactly how you managed to get your spell off before he did, that's a sign not to think too hard about the game.

Then how does he befcome visisble if the spell he casts never goes off. If he is unable to cast the spell, he stays invisible.

 

[hong]

Then how does he befcome visisble if the spell he casts never goes off. If he is unable to cast the spell, he stays invisible.

He tries to cast the spell, but it fizzles. Note that if someone readied a sword swing against an invisible spellcaster, the exact same issue would arise.

And intent most certainly does come into it when deciding whether invisibility is negated. The test is whether you cast a spell that targets, or includes in its area of effect, an enemy creature. What constitutes an "enemy" is something that can only be decided by intent.