D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[humble minion]

Extra weird because he canonically has a son. Maybe it's his wife? I would guess they're completely rewriting the domain with no similarity to the original.

Canonically (according to Legacy of the Blood, which admittedly is a somewhat ... controversial ... book especially among canon fiends) he has four children, all grown, some with children of their own, and in addition there's still branches of the d'Honaire family in Mordent dating back from before he and his parents left for Dementlieu. There's plenty of scope for finding a new Darklord from the extended family, assuming WotC aren't planning to just sweepingly retcon the whole setting in the 5e book and pretend Dominic never existed.

 

[Faolyn]

Canonically (according to Legacy of the Blood, which admittedly is a somewhat ... controversial ... book especially among canon fiends)

Ah. It's been ages since I looked at that book. So, yeah, OK.

 

[humble minion]

I think the issue is that if Dominic is just the local ruler of his domain (even if he is an Evil ruler) but doesn't get involved with the PCs, its irrelevant what his stats are. But the moment he becomes an antagonist to the PCs, the greater the chances the PCs are going to try to confront him and he's just not built for that.

The challenge with Dominic isn't defeating him, it's finding out firstly that anyone is mentally controlling half of Dementlieu high society in the first place, and then secondly finding out who it is. A Dominic story is set up to be much more of a trust-no-one intrigue and detective plot rather than a combat plot, and how well that works in the execution is hugely dependant on the DM, and whether the playing group buys in. Dominic's big advantage is that nobody knows he's the bad guy, or even that he's anything other than a career politician. He's not even the nominal ruler of the domain.

Which is a bit of a two-edged sword. The protagonists being the only people who know anything's wrong while everyone else naively goes about their business is of course a horror staple - but if everything's so relatively normal, how do the PCs find out about it in the first place? And if the players have the expectation that they're in a horror game in which there are Darklords, then they arrive in a place which is relatively un-beset by slobbering monsters, what do they actually do? In-character, S has the advantage over 99% of the population of Ravenloft in knowing that Darklords are even a thing, so she's actually looking for one when she arrives here. The dynamic of Dementlieu would vary wildy depending on whether your PCs also share that knowledge.

And of course there's the matter of Dominic's protectors, the ones who actually guard him from physical threats. They're talked of as 'powerful,' but what does that mean in the context of Dementlieu? The listed highest-level NPCs in the domain are the Brain at 9th, a private detective at 10th, and the elderly, near-death high priestess of Ezra at 14th. Dominic himself is 10th level but is an Aristocrat, the old 3rd-ed NPC class which is much weaker in combat than any PC class, and I suspect he really only had these levels because under the 3rd ed system skills are capped with level, and they wanted him to have good social and political skills outside the use of his mental abilities. Also, who ARE they? PCs are more likely to get in combat with them than with Dominic himself, if the book is going to give us any stat blocks, theirs are surely more useful than his.

 

[Faolyn]

The challenge with Dominic isn't defeating him, it's finding out firstly that anyone is mentally controlling half of Dementlieu high society in the first place, and then secondly finding out who it is.

It depends a lot, I think, on where you want to be on the realism-versus-horror scale.

Realistically, the PCs should probably never be able to find out that Dominic has mind control powers. He's too clever to reveal himself and likely won't have a need to hypnotize the PCs directly. The only time there might be a hint is if the PCs plan on doing something that Dominic doesn't want them to do and all of a sudden friendly NPCs refuse to help them and the police come to arrest them or drive them out of town, even if those people had been on the PCs side up until that point.

Horror-wise, however, it could be quite easy to at least reveal that someone is mind-controlling everyone, if you don't mind going cinematic.

1. Dominic wants to get the PCs a message. It's delivered over the course of a few hours by numerous different random people the PCs meet, each giving a different part of the message. And each person knows something about the PCs that they couldn't possibly have known. Because in 5e, at least, dominate person lets you look through your host's eyes, and I see no reason to not give Dominic that ability as well. Some NPC saw a PC doing something, and now a completely random one knows as well. Whether they remember when they're not being mind-controlled is another matter. But Dominic remembers.

2. The PCs are somewhere, like a tavern. Suddenly, every NPC blanks out, gets up, and walks away. If the PCs follow, these NPCs are doing something truly odd. If one is awakened, they look around curiously, then shrug and go back to whatever they're doing. And since it's Dominic, the something odd could be anything from attacking one of The Brain's bases of operations to attending an artistic event because Dom's crushing on the artist and he wants her to have a perfect opening night.

And of course there's the matter of Dominic's protectors, the ones who actually guard him from physical threats. [...] Also, who ARE they? PCs are more likely to get in combat with them than with Dominic himself, if the book is going to give us any stat blocks, theirs are surely more useful than his.

As they're totally dominated and Obedient to him, Dominic's minions would also be "willing" to throw themselves in the worst peril for him. So the PCs are going to confront Dominic and all of a sudden dozens or scores of townspeople throw themselves on the PCs, attempting to murder them. Some players may be fine with killing townsfolk, but others (including my table) would balk at that. And since they're technically innocents, killing a controlled townfolk could be worth Dark Power checks.

Plus, his minions could do little things to harm the PCs. Jean the innkeeper always seemed to like you and he swears up and down he doesn't remember poisoning your stew, even under a zone of truth spell.

 

[humble minion]

Horror-wise, however, it could be quite easy to at least reveal that someone is mind-controlling everyone, if you don't mind going cinematic.

Oh yeah, there's some very creepy things you can do there, if Dominic want's to be dramatic and rub it in their faces. The difficulty is how to get the PCs to discover it themselves if he's intent on concealing it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Wouldn't be a day that ends in -y if you didn't.

Certainly, it wouldn't be fun if all the Darklords were CR 15+. However, D&D (even AD&D) has always had a heavier emphasis on combat than other RPGs and unfortunately, when your players have a hammer, they start looking for nails. A Darklord like Dominic or Ivana basically can't survive any encounter with a group of mildly competent PCs, and their primary attacks (domination, poison) are coin-flip Save-or-die effects. Sure, they can be masterminds in far-off towers working through middlemen and lackeys, but that ends up removing the personal component of the character. How much fun is it if the PCs never get to confront their tormentor, or if they do they end him in one sword blow?

But it is still possible to do low combat adventures. And no one said these characters had to be guaranteed survival against PCs. You can structure adventures however you like, and as the GM you have a lot of power in terms of where things are located, how they move in the adventure, etc. If the players don't even know they are being opposed by Dominic, they can't exactly march up and slice off his head in the first ten minutes. The whole point of a character like Dominic, as far as I can tell (as I said he was never one that personally resonated with me) is he can be a looming figure in the background, where the players might never get that personal touch (perhaps in notes, or in other forms, but they don't necessarily need to see him or talk to him----this can actually be more powerful). But if you do need them to interact, you do so knowing they might succeed in killing him. He is week enough that is feasible, but it isn't going to be a cake walk when you have a man who has so many people under his spell. And ,importantly, there are always ways to make killing him not impossible, but a difficult choice. If Dominic knows something important that the PCs want to know (could be anything, but lets say they are trying to escape Ravenloft and he knows, or says he knows the location of an escape portal), they can still kill him, but they could be sacrificing valuable information doing so. Such a moment might be a turning point, where he is even able to convince the players to work for him. Who knows. It could also turn out he dies with a sword in his stomach (but I still wouldn't overlook his ability to mesmerize---which can also be turned on PCs).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes and no. Surely, Ravenloft wasn't about dungeon crawls or random encounters tables, but combat was still a pivotal part of the game. (NWPs were still a nascent method of non-combat skill use, and other non-combat skills were primarily bundled into the Thief class). Sure, you spent a lot of time building dread, atmosphere and wonder into your PCs, but when the werewolf finally showed himself you still ended up rolling for initiative. I6 captures that spirit perfectly. Sure, Strahd's castle is gloomy and atmospheric (and mostly devoid of combat encounters, save for random encounters, Strahd strikes and the occasional guardian) but eventually you encounter Strahd and dice come out and live-or-die you have a memorable encounter. Ultimately, D&D is still a game of heroics, even when wrapped in gothic finery. The Heroes are going to want to confront the monster.

I think combat is as important as you want it to be. I've run campaigns that were mostly about solving mysteries with very, very little combat. Some threats are so powerful, combat is a stupid choice, some threats, combat just isn't the best option, and some adventures are about things that don't led themselves to charging in with a sword. Again, I do get that there was this tension between heroics and horror in Ravenloft. But RoT is firmly on the end of the spectrum aiming more for horror, and it is possible to achieve that, even using D&D. I ran enough campaigns where that was the case, that I know first hand it isn't that difficult. Especially when you have characters advancing slowly from there not being that many combats.

Obviously there will be confrontations with monsters. A good monster hunt can end with that. But a good chunk of the time, the players are not killing a creature, instead they are helping to end its curse. If you read the Van Richten books this part of the game is clear (and it is clear in RoT, it just doesn't get the full treatment they are able to give it in the Van Richten Guidebooks). So sure, sometimes you are going have players taking on a werewolf with weapons forged from special alloys, and that is a load of fun. Not knocking it. But I always preferred adventures where the fun is in solving a mystery, investigating the background of a monster before you can even think of confronting, figuring out a way to lay a ghost to rest or end a family curse. Typically in these threads I am not one to say D&D needs to be about finding non-violent solutions to problems, but for those who want an example of how you can have campaigns where non-violent solutions, solutions focused on redeeming a foe rather than killing them, Ravenloft is actually a very good fit. It has mechanics for curses, it has unique mechanics for all kinds of monsters, it has powers checks (players who just going around killing things can end up in the same place as a dark lord if they aren't careful).

 

[Bedrockgames]

As they're totally dominated and Obedient to him, Dominic's minions would also be "willing" to throw themselves in the worst peril for him. So the PCs are going to confront Dominic and all of a sudden dozens or scores of townspeople throw themselves on the PCs, attempting to murder them. Some players may be fine with killing townsfolk, but others (including my table) would balk at that. And since they're technically innocents, killing a controlled townfolk could be worth Dark Power checks.

Plus, his minions could do little things to harm the PCs. Jean the innkeeper always seemed to like you and he swears up and down he doesn't remember poisoning your stew, even under a zone of truth spell.

This is really important. When you start examining some of these weaker dark lords closely, it becomes clear if you play them as smart as they are supposed to be, it isn't a piece of cake to kill them just because they are low HP (and it is worth pointing out Dominic is technically treated as a 7th level enchanter for the purpose of his voice and gaze, and it specifically says he avoids combat at all costs). And also the point about killing townsfolk under his spell. I would certainly agree that killing townspeople under an enchantment would warrant powers checks. And parties who are 'heroic' shouldn't even be entertaining the thought of killing such people (and who is to say there isn't a werewolf or some other creature in that mix of innocent townsfolk).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also worth pointing out, many of the dark lords, not Dominic obviously, have very funky requirements that need to be met before they can killed (in many instances it is even a question of whether they can be killed). If you are genuinely in need of having someone like Dominic still be a viable threat against a party that might march in and kill him, adding something like this to him would be a very easy fix (not a fix I ever felt the need for, but it isn't hard to apply that to just about any lord)

 

[Faolyn]

Oh yeah, there's some very creepy things you can do there, if Dominic want's to be dramatic and rub it in their faces. The difficulty is how to get the PCs to discover it themselves if he's intent on concealing it.

If you really want him to conceal it, there's almost no point in using it as the plot. Just go with other types of horrors. Dementlieu may not have a lot of really high CR monsters, but it has some. Weirdly, the 2e Forgotten Realms had stats for the vampiric undead muse lhianan shee, while Ravenloft never did, which is a strange oversight and also the perfect creature for this domain. And I've always thought the vampyr club in Falkovnia would be better suited for Dementlieu.