D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Alzrius]

Given the significant contribution of female writers to both the literary genre (e.g. Mary Shelley) and the development of Ravenloft (e.g. Laura Hickman) I would say both those suggestions are overly reductionist.

Don't forget that Andria Hayday was one of the primary developers who turned Ravenloft into a campaign setting (along with Bruce Nesmith). In fact, according to RR1 Darklords, she's the one who came up with Tristessa, the Hags of Tepest, and several other domain lords; and those are just the ones from that supplement. (Unfortunately, I can't find any specifics about which ones she wrote for Realm of Terror).

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Remathilis]

I wonder if this is more because these pre-millenial writers didn't write female characters well, or because they were too-closely imitating gothic period writers who didn't write female characters well?

Why not both? .gif

I think a fair amount was genre emulation, though I assume some unconscious bias slipped in as well. And to be fair, the tropes has its place and shouldn't be abandoned, just less frequently used. As Faolyn and I showed, there are a lot of Darklords that needlessly dive into those tropes for shock value. I think a few Darklords could work just fine without matricide.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There's a big difference in the way men are written and the way women are written, and it's far more common for women to be written as either desperate for men or hating men then the reverse and having that be the entirety of their purpose--as if women can't be complete without a man.

There are many more male Darklords who don't have backstories revolving around lust for or hatred of women. In the Core: Azalin, Harkon Lukas, Ivan Dilysnia (who desperately loved his sister, but otherwise doesn't seem to care), Hazlik (who doesn't have a background revolving around lust for or hatred of men, either), Tristan ApBlanc, "Death", Vlad Drakov, Adam, Lord Godefrey (who may hate women, but he rather hates everyone), Alfred Timothy, Gwydion the Sorcerer-Fiend (GOO, does it even know what romance is?), Malkin (although I admit his alter ego, Tristan Hiregaard, is cursed to kill any woman he loves, but Malkin himself doesn't care). The God-Brain wasn't interested in women, IIRC, and neither are Yagno Petrovna nor Frantisek Markov.

In the Core, only Strahd, Dominic d'Honraire, and Urik von Kharkov have "desperate for women" as part of their backstory.

But also in the Core, the female Darklords are:

Jacqueline Renier: desperate for love but can't have it without turning into a rat; apparently doesn't want cuddles or sex in rat form.
Ivana Boritsi: desperate for love but can't have it without poisoning the person she touches.
The Three Hags: who really like eating men and who hate women who are prettier then them; i.e., every woman, basically.
Gabrielle Aderre: wants a relationship but is kind of cursed to only have bad relationships and is also cursed to have kids who will harm her in some way.
The Lady of the Lake: wants to torment one specific man.

The only one female Darklords in the Core who don't seem to care about men are Inza--but she's such a terrible Darklord, with no motivation beyond being born evil, that she doesn't even count IMO--and the banshee Tristessa, who's obsessed with her child.

So basically, except for Inza the Crappy, all the female Darklords have men or children as their prime motivation.

I think this is a bit misleading. The female characters might not pass a modern bechdel test. But that doesn't tell you if a character is well written or not (just if certain tropes are in play). Was 90s Ravenloft current in its treatment of these things? No, of course not, it was written in the 90s. But the 90s were also a time of massive cultural change, and you see that reflected in products like Ravenloft and Vampire. And the characters were rich and well written for an RPG line. And the line has a lot of female writers (many of the novels were written by women, there were female writers on many of the modules and supplements and the black box was written by a man and woman (and the original adventure was written by a man and woman).

You can break things down like that, and selectively choose which meta plot to suit the argument. But just to take one example: Gabrielle Adere, in the original black box had a lot more going on that made her interesting. She was presented as someone who was warned by her mother to never have a child (because it would be disastrous), but the thing that made her terrifying was her hatred. And the relationship that defined her most was with her mother. It was her mother's death that drove her to seek revenge and drew the attention of the dark powers to her (and specifically it was her hatred that attracted the dark powers). She is fueled by a hatred of gypsies and the people who inhabit her domain (and she is jealous of the other domain lords for this reason). I think it is a little tricky to pin her curse down, but in the original entry she hates the gypsies yet cannot harm them directly, and she hates the people of her domain. So I think an inability to vent her anger on the source is a big part of it. She can torment the people of her land but she finds them uninteresting so there is no satisfaction. Also Gabrielle is interesting because she is one of the few domain lords who siezed control of a domain by killing the previous domain lord. It is true, she was warned by her mother she cannot have a babe, a home or a man: but the thing that torments her is being an outcast and the isolation that stems from that. That is pretty relatable I think. And it is a powerful motivator. I think the best lords have these kinds of romantic backstories. And there weren't as many women in the original set, but I feel like the female entries all stood out as really well done (I forget lots of male domain lords, but always remember the female domain lords)

Also one of the reasons romance factors in so much is the gothic influence. Even Strahd is fueled by desire for a woman (and many fo the male domain lords you mentioned, were as well: like Ivan Dilisnya (who is basically modeled after the I Claudius version of Caligula). Some of the most interesting horror characters are fueled by this kind of plot line. The Phantom of the Opera is a great example (and one that would fit right in in Ravenloft).

Keep in mind meta plot really changed things over the course fo the line. And meta plot led to many questionable choices about particular characters.

They certainly could have used more female domain lords. And I think if we had more then the results would have been more varied. Some of the best lords were the likes ofJacqueline Renier and Gabriele Aderre. Jacqueline does in fact have a curse that she turns to her rat man form when in the presence of someone she loves, and unlike other wereats, she is cursed to fall in love. You can say that is bad because it makes her character all about romance or love, but romance and love are hugely important in life and it makes her a much more compelling character than many of the other lords. I think it is a particularly interesting curse, and one you can immediately draw a line from to her cruel behavior. Ivana Boritsi I think wasn't actually fleshed out till after the black box but her curse was mentioned in the entry. I don't know, if you read that entry, I think it is obvious it is tapping into things that were really impacting our lives at the time and making us afraid. She poisoned herself to poison a lover, and still carries the poison in her veins, which is likened to a disease she is immune to but kills any who taste her passion. It was still the height of the AIDS crisis at that time, and that is why a character like that would have resonated with many of us. Again, I think people are simplifying when they paint old Ravenloft as regressive. At the time it definitely wasn't. And I think if you examine things more fully, not just as bullet point lists of criticisms, you do see this is a pretty fleshed out world (for female and male characters). Not saying it is perfect, it could certainly have used more female lords. But it was quite good. And I just think it is very easy to bullet point critiques, and overlook the good of something. Especially when you have a line like this that is significant because it had so many female writers and designers. The best Van Richten book, in my opinion, was written by a woman. Christine Golden is inseparable from the novel line (and you had several other books like Tapestry of Dark Souls or I, Strahd written by women). I've mentioned Lisa Smedman's contributions as well. Also at the time, when I was running it, it was a setting that seemed to be written for both male and female gamers. And remember distinctly the impact seeing all those female credits (often on the modules or supplements I liked most) had. There always seemed to be more women interested in Ravenloft around here in the 90s.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I wonder if this is more because these pre-millenial writers didn't write female characters well, or because they were too-closely imitating gothic period writers who didn't write female characters well?

The women were written well. They just weren't written to modern sensibilities. There is a difference. They were written to the sensibilities of the time. And in that time you can find plenty of examples of poorly written female characters and well written female characters. But the definition of poorly written, shouldn't be "doesn't match the moral or gender sensibilities of current time". That is a bad metric. The question should be are the characters compelling, do they make you want to learn more about them, and are you excited by their personalities. Things like that. I don't judge male characters by how sensitive they are by today's standards. I judge them by how much I enjoy reading about them and, in an RPG, playing them. Ravenloft had stark, interesting and fun to play female characters. Not going to meet all the standards of our time, but it is very easy to go down a list and give characters attributes that match a given periods moral sensibilities. That isn't what makes a character compelling.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think a few Darklords could work just fine without matricide.

But why take this off the table. Matricide and Patricide are terrifying.

 

[Remathilis]

But why take this off the table. Matricide and Patricide are terrifying.

I didn't say take it off the table, I just think it could be used less. Anton Misroi murdering his "cheating" wife is part of his tragic curse, but Fredrick Markov's experiments are gruesome enough that making his wife a test subject adds nothing but shock value. Don't remove all of it, but maybe don't rely on "I killed my wife/sister/daughter/mother" as the crux so often?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Given the significant contribution of female writers to both the literary genre (e.g. Mary Shelley) and the development of Ravenloft (e.g. Laura Hickman) I would say both those suggestions are overly reductionist.

This. Frankenstein is not only a significant influence on gothic horror, but is called out in particular in the black boxed set as an example of how to do it right (the scene with the monster talking to Frankenstein saying "I ought to by thy Adam"). And it is one of the most interesting horror stories out there. You can't judge a book like that based on how well it lines up with a modern test of characters. And Mary Shelley wasn't just a female writer, she was the daughter of one of the founders of feminism: Mary Wollstonecraft. And while Frankenstein focuses on two male characters, the themes are very feminine. This is a story about the creation of life. And you see that getting picked up later in a movie like Bride of Frankenstein (it is one of the reasons BoF is considered queer cinema---among other elements).

And a lot of horror at this time, the time Ravenloft was being written, was written by women. There was a period I think I was mostly reading female writers. When Ravenloft was written, you couldn't walk into a book store and not see rows of Anne Rice books for example. The author who wrote Tapestry of Dark Souls, Elaine Bergstrom, also had a pretty big vampire line at that time too (I remember reading most of them). I feel like people are really oversimplifying the content and the history here.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I didn't say take it off the table, I just think it could be used less. Anton Misroi murdering his "cheating" wife is part of his tragic curse, but Fredrick Markov's experiments are gruesome enough that making his wife a test subject adds nothing but shock value. Don't remove all of it, but maybe don't rely on "I killed my wife/sister/daughter/mother" as the crux so often?

But that is, think important to both horror and gothic horror. People killing loved ones, especially people you are normally supposed to have love, even unconditional love, for, is something that makes these characters more horrifying. It was used a lot in Ravenloft because it was effective. But I didn't find it overused.

 

[Remathilis]

But that is, think important to both horror and gothic horror. People killing loved ones, especially people you are normally supposed to have love, even unconditional love, for, is something that makes these characters more horrifying. It was used a lot in Ravenloft because it was effective. But I didn't find it overused.

All I'm saying is find better ways to do it other than Women in Refrigerators. Notice there aren't a lot of female Darklords who murdered thier husbands? (And don't fall into the femme fatale/black widow trope?)

Women in refrigerators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bedrockgames]

All I'm saying is find better ways to do it other than Women in Refrigerators. Notice there aren't a lot of female Darklords who murdered thier husbands? (And don't fall into the femme fatale/black widow trope?)

Women in refrigerators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ivana Boritsi poisoned and killed her lover. It may not have been her husband but it was certainly similar territory. I would have to review all the lords, which I don't have time to, to respond more fully to this statement.

And in terms of characters like Elise Mordenheim, that actually works for Mordenheim's motivation I think. And it ties at least loosely to some of the beats in the source material (certainly paves the way for a Bride of Frankenstein like plot: and there is an adventure called Bride of Mordenheim). You can dismiss this stuff by just calling it "women in refrigerators". That doesn't make it bad or not well done. You have to judge these things on their own. In the case of Elise, that is material I think added to the setting (in general I thought lamordia was incredibly well done, though I know you and I disagree strongly on Lamordia based on our posts). If you don't like it, you don't like it. It is perfectly reasonable for you to not find Victor Mordenheim or Adam to be well written (especially since they are stand ins for existing characters from Gothic Fiction). But I really think these kinds of dismissive critics that are little more than invoking a term, doesn't capture if something is good writing or not. For me the proof was in the pudding. Running a character like Mordenheim was always very easy, and part of the reason was you could steer that easily into numerous different directions (camp, melodrama, sympathetic villainy, etc).