D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

Women in refrigerators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

People talk about lazy design and lazy writing. I think these kinds of critiques are lazy criticism

 

[Bedrockgames]

Just noting that in 1664 there were 2,500 citizens in the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam (Manhattan Island). Lamordia has a population of 3600 - and I always got that Dutch settlement vibe from the place

Also, the theme of Lamordia is isolation and desolation. Adam is lonely. The land reflects his bleak loneliness and his longing. I agree with the dutch thing. Also living in New England, a small coastal settlement is totally believable (as I said I live in the modern world yet grew up in a town of under 3,400 people: and that is the present population, think it was under 2,000 when I was a kid). Ravenloft isn't a soundstage, but it isn't the real world either. It is a demi plane. It doesn't have to abide by real world physics and laws when it comes to feeding the local population or explaining technology. Like I said before it was always a balance of real and surreal. It has been at its weakest, IMO, when it tried too much for naturalistic realism.

EDIT: Also just a note about believability. There are rules of thumb when it comes to population sizes, water resources, trade, etc. But as a former history student, you are regularly surprised by the ability of individual instances to break these rules. Not saying Ravenloft should therefore be regarded as believable. But there are plenty of historical examples of cities and places that don't fit neatly into some of the rules of thumb gamers have created about world building (and I think sometimes that encroaches too much on being creative)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

All I'm saying is find better ways to do it other than Women in Refrigerators. Notice there aren't a lot of female Darklords who murdered thier husbands? (And don't fall into the femme fatale/black widow trope?)

Women in refrigerators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Black Widow/Bluebeard. Same trope, different name depending on gender. The vast majority of darklords have at least one murdered lover stuffed away in a box somewhere, irrespective of gender. Because doomed romance is a pretty central component of gothic literature.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Notice there aren't a lot of female Darklords who murdered thier husbands? (And don't fall into the femme fatale/black widow trope?)

This just feels like a paradox. The complaint is not enough female darklorcs murdering their husbands, but then we are instructed to not fall into the black widow/femme fatale trope. At the very least, it takes a fair number of these instances off the table. Again, someone has labeled something a trope. We have a term for every trope now. We even have terms for inverting or avoiding tropes. And these terms call just get used as a bludgeon against a character, whether that character is well written or not. Tropes simply mean something has been done before, and may even indicate people find the trope immoral, troubling or problematic. I think what we end up doing though is taking out a lot of interesting characters if we just stop there. Black widows can be interesting characters (Ivana Boritsi is an interesting, powerful and terrifying Darklord). Horror often uses these kinds of tropes more than other genres, and I think part of the reason is to make the reader/viewer more uncomfortable

 

[Remathilis]

This just feels like a paradox. The complaint is not enough female darklorcs murdering their husbands, but then we are instructed to not fall into the black widow/femme fatale trope. At the very least, it takes a fair number of these instances off the table. Again, someone has labeled something a trope. We have a term for every trope now. We even have terms for inverting or avoiding tropes. And these terms call just get used as a bludgeon against a character, whether that character is well written or not. Tropes simply mean something has been done before, and may even indicate people find the trope immoral, troubling or problematic. I think what we end up doing though is taking out a lot of interesting characters if we just stop there. Black widows can be interesting characters (Ivana Boritsi is an interesting, powerful and terrifying Darklord). Horror often uses these kinds of tropes more than other genres, and I think part of the reason is to make the reader/viewer more uncomfortable

Let me give you an example:

Markov's a madman who mixes humans and animals into monsters. He killed his wife in one of his experiments, but his MO isn't aimed at women nor does he do it out of any angry or hatred of women. If Markov's brother, father, best friend, or son has played the role of his wife in his origin, nothing changes.

Ivana Bortsei's MO is to seduce men and kill them with her poison, which denies her the pleasure of intimacy. Her evil is based on getting revenge on those who are denied to her. Her sexuality is her weapon.

Where is the female Markov - the woman whose evil isn't focused on her connection to the opposite sex and instead performs acts of evil for some other reason? One who murdered her loved one only because they got in the way or found her dark hobby. That's what I am talking about. Male Darklords who don't have to kill thier women to become irredeemable, female Darklords whose evil isn't tied to being denied male intimacy.

 

[Faolyn]

Bedrockgames: I didn't say the old female characters were bad; I said I want new female characters whose backgrounds didn't revolve around men in some way.

And the line has a lot of female writers (many of the novels were written by women, there were female writers on many of the modules and supplements and the black box was written by a man and woman (and the original adventure was written by a man and woman).

This doesn't actually make anything better, you know.

(switching the order around a bit...)

but romance and love are hugely important in life and it makes her a much more compelling character than many of the other lords. I think it is a particularly interesting curse, and one you can immediately draw a line from to her cruel behavior. Ivana Boritsi I think wasn't actually fleshed out till after the black box but her curse was mentioned in the entry. I don't know, if you read that entry,

I've been reading the RL stuff since the Black Box, and have run numerous games in it, in several systems.

I disagree that adding love and romance make her more compelling. Now, I will admit that I'm aroace, so I'm working at a disadvantage here. But, adding love and romance only work to add interest if there is something else to the character. Romance should be an aspect out of several in a character, not the only aspect.

You can break things down like that, and selectively choose which meta plot to suit the argument. But just to take one example: Gabrielle Adere, in the original black box had a lot more going on that made her interesting. She was presented as someone who was warned by her mother to never have a child

Because a woman who is incomplete without a child is so much better than one who is incomplete without a man. You do realize that childless women--of which I am one--are often criticized horribly by both men and women for our childlessness, whether it's by choice or not.

Also one of the reasons romance factors in so much is the gothic influence.

There's a difference between "romance" and "look at this pathetic excuse for a woman who can't get a man!" and "she can't get a man; that's why she hates all men."

They certainly could have used more female domain lords. And I think if we had more then the results would have been more varied. Some of the best lords were the likes ofJacqueline Renier and Gabriele Aderre. Jacqueline does in fact have a curse that she turns to her rat man form when in the presence of someone she loves, and unlike other wereats, she is cursed to fall in love. You can say that is bad because it makes her character all about romance or love,

It makes her flat, especially when almost every other female Darklord is also all about the men.

Here's a quick overview of the goals of male Darklords and their motivations:

• Strahd: Yearns for his lost lust-object; also, wants magical knowledge.
• Azalin: Wants to learn new magic and to escape the Domains.
• Ivan Dilisnya: Bored now!
• Vlad Drakov: Wants to conquer everything in order to prove he's manly enough.
• Hiregaard/Malkin: Hiregaard wants to stop Malkin's evil; Malkin wants to stop Hiregaard's good.
• Afred Timothy: Wants to destroy humans, unite the werewolves, and keep anyone from learning about his curse.
• Urik Von Kharkov: Wants to be accepted as a human. (Note: while he takes wives, that's more part of his desire to be seen as a gentleman and a human rather than romance or lust.)
• Hazlik: Wants revenge on those who insulted him.
• Harkon Lukas: Wants more people to control.
• Easan the Mad: Mostly just insane.
• Dominic d'Honaire: Wants a woman to love him. (Note: this might be one of the only male Darklords who is truly focused on romance.)
• Adam: Wants to be accepted as a human.
• Frantisek Markov: Wants to continue his experiments and resume his fully-human form.
• Lord Godefrey: Wants to be seen as the master of Mordent but is just a ghost.

Now here's the female darklords:

• The Three Hags: Jealous of younger, prettier women; want to kill and eat men.
• Tristessa: Wants her baby.
• Ivana Boritsi: Hates men, wants to destroy happy relationships.
• Gabrielle Aderre: Wants a man and a baby.
• Jacqueline Reneir: Wants true love; murders her sister's lovers out of jealousy.
• Inza Kulchevich: Wants to be evil.

Go a little further abroad:

• Tsien Chiang: Hates men.
• The Hive Queen: Wants to be evil.
• Tiyet: Wants to eat hearts.
• Elana Faithhold: Wants to spread law and fight (what she thinks is) evil.

The men's goals are all over the place. Some are motivated by love, romance, or lust. Some want power, either supernatural or political. Some want acceptance. Some want humanity. Some want knowledge.

The women's goals are "women's goals," because women are "supposed" to want a husband and children and those who don't are jealous and spiteful (the hags, Ivana) or just plain evil from birth (Inza, the woman who became the Hive Queen); I give Tristessa a pass on the men part because she was drow, but even she wants her baby.

The only exceptions are Tiyet (she slept her way to power, but I'll give her a pass because of period-typical sexism) and Elana, who also happens to be my favorite (although I personally would change the dragon from a complete fake to an id monster). Also Merilee Markuza, who actually isn't a Darklord and who has compelling interests--but who is permanently a prepubescent child, which is probably the only reason the writers had to go beyond their usual tropes.

That's what you're ignoring. I'm not just making "bullet point critiques" here; I'm talking about how the women are written as having nothing but stereotypical goals and desires. Where are the female Darklords who want to exert their political power, or who want to gain knowledge, or who are monstrous and want to be seen as human?

 

[Faolyn]

Just noting that in 1664 there were 2,500 citizens in the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam (Manhattan Island). Lamordia has a population of 3600 - and I always got that Dutch settlement vibe from the place

Those settlers had to deal with disease, bad weather, food shortages, etc. In Lamordia, they have to deal with all of those and monsters.

 

[Faolyn]

This just feels like a paradox. The complaint is not enough female darklorcs murdering their husbands, but then we are instructed to not fall into the black widow/femme fatale trope.

When a Darklord kills his spouse/lover, this is usually for a reason such as an accident (Adam), he needed a corpse and she was handy (Markov), or because he was out of control with bestial rage and she was in the way (Von Kharkov).

When a black widow/femme fatale kills a man, it's because she hates men (most of them), because she was jealous of him (maybe) having an affair (Ivana), or because she was jealous of someone else being happy (Jacqueline).

Completely different reasoning there.

Horror often uses these kinds of tropes more than other genres, and I think part of the reason is to make the reader/viewer more uncomfortable

There's also a huge difference between being uncomfortable and being bored because of lazy writing.

 

[Faolyn]

I wonder if this is more because these pre-millenial writers didn't write female characters well, or because they were too-closely imitating gothic period writers who didn't write female characters well?

In Inza's case, pure laziness; she was born evil.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There's also a huge difference between being uncomfortable and being bored because of lazy writing.

I will respond to your other points when I have time, I want to give them fair consideration. But here we simply disagree. I definitely would not regard the black box set NPCs as lazy writing, in the least. And I have to say I find that criticism very stale these days. It is so easy to call something lazy because you dislike it, or you feel it is an overused trope (even if the thing you are critiquing is nearly 30 years old). But it is really hard to know or demonstrate if writing is actually lazy (we never really know how much effort was put into a person's writing, unless they were filmed during the process). But I find the black boxed set quite clever, inspiring, engaging, and compelling to read. I know for me it isn't 'lazy' or bad writing because I blazed through it, then went back and immediately re-read it because I loved it so much. Then when I ran the characters, it was glorious. Lazy, bad writing makes me want to put down a book when I am reading it, and lazy, bad design, makes for bad characters and setting at the table.

I think what you are describing isn't so much about quality of writing, but about how well the writing aligns with the reader's worldview (or a set of moral principles). To me that is very different from whether something is well written and clever.