Readying actions "out of combat"

[ThirdWizard]

you also see it WORK in movies and such... to say that making a listen check against some one sneaking up on you is only for dramitic purpose and will never allow you to actually counter the ambush is pretty harsh, IMO.

Kahuna burger

I said I've never seen it work. Six seconds just isn't very long.

 

[ThirdWizard]

because you weren't going to have the enemy enter in the next round anyway, or because you just didn't let it work?

Come now, we're above all that. I wouldn't implement it if it wouldn't work. It just never has happened to, partially because my PCs are not extremely paranoid and partially because it only lasts 6 seconds. It's sort of a reactive surprise round that has never actually been tested.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but readied actions are one of the game mechanics which gives absolute advantage to the DM and thus in many cases the npcs. Under the standard rules, the player must tell the DM 1) that he is readying, 2) what he is readying and 3) what will trigger it.

Duly noted.

The DM on the other hand techniacally doesn't even have to tell the players that an NPC is readying. The players can never prove that the npc wouldn't have responded in a way that made their ready useless ("I ready a spell turning for his next disinigrate!" - "He casts an empowered fireball") anyway, and the DM never has to prove that the npc was really readying for that or with that.

I allow Spot/Sense Motive checks for subtle readied actions, or if someone is obviously readying, I flat out tell them. If the wizard is wanting to counterspell the party wizard, for example, I would roll a secret spot check for the PC and tell them if they noticed the wizard watching them closely. Same works for NPCs.

If your players regularly try to ready based on suspicious noises (a very sensible action) I'd give it two rounds at least (how long do real world snipers 'ready' for someone to poke their head up after all) and let it work once in a while. Otherwise, it gives the possible impression of playing against the PCs. While I wouldn't accuse you of actually doing so on so little info, even the apearance of that behavior can lead to bad feelings in a group.

When I say its never worked, its never worked for NPCs either. Say, the PC was stalking an NPC and the NPC makes a listen check. The PC gets a spot check, sees the NPC perk up, and jumps behind an alley way just in time. The NPC then whirls around with a crossbow pointed out. Will the PC be foolish enough to jump out into the street charging the NPC? (Note that they both also rolled initiative.)

That's never actually occured, but it could.

oh, and


you also see it WORK in movies and such... to say that making a listen check against some one sneaking up on you is only for dramitic purpose and will never allow you to actually counter the ambush is pretty harsh, IMO.

Kahuna burger

I'm sure it'll happen eventually, and when that happens, it will be very dramatic.

 

[KarinsDad]

Readying outside of combat is just a super-weasly way to try and get a free turn at the start of the fight. If PCs are doing it, then every orc behind every door should be doing it too.

I disagree that it is super-weasly. In fact, I think that not allowing readying out of combat is a terrible rule in DND.

I agree that orcs behind doors should be able to do it (if they have foreknowledge that PCs are approaching).


In my game last week, the PCs let an NPC out of a magical statis prison.

They were not in combat ahead of time, but the Dwarven Fighter and the Halfling Wizard/Rogue declared that they were readying an action to shoot with their bows if the creature that got let out of the prison attacks or casts a spell (I allow a little latitude with readied actions because it does not make sense that you couldn't fire a bow if someone makes any suspicious move).

The NPC was not even there yet. Should I roll an initiative for the NPC when he comes out of the prison? Why? He is not in combat. Why should I bother to have all of the players roll initiative when a fight might not even break out? Even rolling initiative affects roleplaying and I'd prefer to not do it unless it is obvious that combat has started. I think this is an important point with regard to readied actions. Players will react and roleplay differently if the DM asks them to roll initiatives.

As it turned out, after a few minutes of conversation, the NPC attempted to Teleport away and the two PCs shot him. I have absolutely no problem with rolling initiative at that point in time as if we had rolled it previously. From my point of view, the NPC is aware of the PCs and vice versa and nobody is flatfooted. It's as if the two PCs had readied actions in the surprise round and since then, everyone else was doing conversation miscellaneous actions. The "order" of that is basically irrelevant until we actually get into real combat.

 

[0-hr]

The NPC announces his desire to perform an action that the party consider hostile (well, arrow-worthy anyway). That's the start of combat so I'd roll init at that point.

If the PCs were somehow being sneaky about their attempted assassination, then I'd use Spot or Sense Motive to give them a potential surprise round.

If they had the NPC in a prisoner situation (arrows drawn and aimed), then I'd give them the "surprise" round even though their actions are hardly surprising. Regardless, no readying outside of combat. And no combat starting until hostilities are imminent.

That' the way I'd do it, anyway.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lets assume that everyone readies actions all the time.

Since they only get a move+ready action on their turn, noone moves faster than their base movement.

When a combat starts, everyone will get a single attack or move action. In what order? Highest dex to lowest dex, and matching dexterities will have to arbitrate randomly.

Lets move on a bit, and say that you can only ready an action if you've reason do do so, like, say, a successful spot or listen check, or other knowledge of a dangerous system coming up.

So everyone who knows there's a fight coming up gets an attack or move action in order of highest dex to lowest dex, while those who don't have to wait until the readied actions have finished.

In other words you get a surprise round, where noone rolls initiative.

Which is why readying actions outside of combat is bloody stupid.

 

[KarinsDad]

Which is why readying actions outside of combat is bloody stupid.

What is bloody stupid is that there are legitimate actions both in and out of combat that are difficult to adjudicate properly based on the core rules.

For example:

1) Readying out of combat (i.e. before combat actually begins where the trigger of the ready action might be the first action of combat).

2) Good guys and bad guys are in a tense situation where they are just talking at the moment. Suddenly, one character from one side decides to cast a spell. He initiates first, but there are no good rules for him winning initiative the majority of the time. Either the DM rules that he goes first and then we go into initiative (in which case he goes first 100% of the time which is not what would happen in a "gunfight"), or the DM has everyone make initiative rolls right away and even though this character started casting a spell first, a stupid set of die rolls indicates that he actually acts as the 47th character (i.e. his chances are typically no better than any other character unless the DM gives him an initiative bonus which isn't part of core rules).

3) Multiple characters readying in combat (unless the 3.5 rules added some new content here) and all of their ready triggers go off simultaneously. Who goes first (for determination of whether other readied characters actually get to go, for determination of future initiative, etc.)?

The rules are fairly good once in combat (except the multiple readies), or before you get into combat. But, that interface period of time where you transition from out of combat to combat are pretty darn weak and I think many DMs handle unusual situations at that point of time differently.

 

[Storm Raven]

1) Readying out of combat (i.e. before combat actually begins where the trigger of the ready action might be the first action of combat).

Then roll initiative to see who goes first, the actor or the "disruptor". It's not that hard to figure out. Try this: try to be "on your guard for several minutes, ready to react instantaneously. Your attention will wander within a few seconds, I guarantee it, everyone's does. If you want to disrupt someone's first action in combat, be good at getting a high intiative, that attribute reflects having fast reactions.

2) Good guys and bad guys are in a tense situation where they are just talking at the moment. Suddenly, one character from one side decides to cast a spell. He initiates first, but there are no good rules for him winning initiative the majority of the time. Either the DM rules that he goes first and then we go into initiative (in which case he goes first 100% of the time which is not what would happen in a "gunfight"), or the DM has everyone make initiative rolls right away and even though this character started casting a spell first, a stupid set of die rolls indicates that he actually acts as the 47th character (i.e. his chances are typically no better than any other character unless the DM gives him an initiative bonus which isn't part of core rules).

Sure, roll initiative. If he doesn't get his combat action first, he "acts first", but everyone reacts to the start of his action before he can complete it. Either that or give him a Bluff check against the other characters to obtain a surprise action, opposed by their Sense Motive checks.

3) Multiple characters readying in combat (unless the 3.5 rules added some new content here) and all of their ready triggers go off simultaneously. Who goes first (for determination of whether other readied characters actually get to go, for determination of future initiative, etc.)?

The last triggered readied action takes place first, and then resolve in reverse order, the triggered actions taking precedence and occurring just before their triggers. The initiative of all involved is set to the same order as their readied actions take place. This is set out pretty clearly in the rules. Based upon your arguments here, I'm not sure you have read the rules very thoroughly, instead deciding that some of the rules are "just broken" without actually understanding the rules to begin with.

 

[KarinsDad]

Then roll initiative to see who goes first, the actor or the "disruptor". It's not that hard to figure out. Try this: try to be "on your guard for several minutes, ready to react instantaneously. Your attention will wander within a few seconds, I guarantee it, everyone's does. If you want to disrupt someone's first action in combat, be good at getting a high intiative, that attribute reflects having fast reactions.

...

Sure, roll initiative. If he doesn't get his combat action first, he "acts first", but everyone reacts to the start of his action before he can complete it. Either that or give him a Bluff check against the other characters to obtain a surprise action, opposed by their Sense Motive checks.

You are illustrating my point. These are not rules that you are quoting, rather they are suggestions. There are no official ways to resolve these non-standard types of thing, hence, each DM will do his own thing.

The last triggered readied action takes place first, and then resolve in reverse order, the triggered actions taking precedence and occurring just before their triggers. The initiative of all involved is set to the same order as their readied actions take place. This is set out pretty clearly in the rules. Based upon your arguments here, I'm not sure you have read the rules very thoroughly, instead deciding that some of the rules are "just broken" without actually understanding the rules to begin with.

Please.

Do not be condescending. I know of no such rules as those you just stated. They might be in 3.5 (like I mentioned when I posted item #3 above), but I'm fairly sure they were not in 3E. Nor are they in the 3E SRD or the 3.5 SRD (quoted below).

So, maybe you should try to understand yourself what are real rules as opposed to Storm Raven house rules. And, yet again you illustrate my point that each DM will do his own thing with regard to these.

If these are actual rules, please quote a page number from a book.

The ready action lets a character prepare to take an action later, after a character's turn is over but before a character's next one has begun. Readying is a standard action, so a character can move as well. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that a character readies might do so).
Only partial actions can be readied. See the table in the description of "Start full round action" for a list of standard partial actions.

Specify the partial action a character will take and the conditions under which it will be taken. When those conditions are met, the character may take the readied partial action. The partial action comes before the action that triggers it. For the rest of the fight, the character's initiative result is the count on which the character took the readied action, and the character acts immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered the readied action.

If the character takes the readied action into a subsequent round, and the conditions are met before the character's normal initiative, the character's initiative rises to that new point in the order of battle, the character may take the readied action, and whether that action is taken or not, the character does not get a regular action that round.

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character?s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don?t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don?t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

 

[IndyPendant]

Hmm...it seems that the majority of GMs are *against* their players. Bad situation for a nearly omnipotent god (which basically describes a GM) to be in. In my campaigns, I try to be as 'neutral' as possible. I set up the situation ahead of time, and then try to 'get in the NPC's heads' to see what they do. I'm not trying to kill the characters--but the NPC's might be. So I try to be as objective as possible. For example, can the NPC's see/hear/suspect the party is there? If not, the party may get a small 'bonus' of surprise. It's all pretty much common-sense stuff.

In my game last week, the PCs let an NPC out of a magical statis prison.

They were not in combat ahead of time, but the Dwarven Fighter and the Halfling Wizard/Rogue declared that they were readying an action to shoot with their bows if the creature that got let out of the prison attacks or casts a spell (I allow a little latitude with readied actions because it does not make sense that you couldn't fire a bow if someone makes any suspicious move).

The NPC was not even there yet. Should I roll an initiative for the NPC when he comes out of the prison? Why? He is not in combat. Why should I bother to have all of the players roll initiative when a fight might not even break out? Even rolling initiative affects roleplaying and I'd prefer to not do it unless it is obvious that combat has started. I think this is an important point with regard to readied actions. Players will react and roleplay differently if the DM asks them to roll initiatives.

As it turned out, after a few minutes of conversation, the NPC attempted to Teleport away and the two PCs shot him. I have absolutely no problem with rolling initiative at that point in time as if we had rolled it previously. From my point of view, the NPC is aware of the PCs and vice versa and nobody is flatfooted. It's as if the two PCs had readied actions in the surprise round and since then, everyone else was doing conversation miscellaneous actions. The "order" of that is basically irrelevant until we actually get into real combat.

If this were to happen in my game, for example, I would imagine the situation in my mind. There's nothing at *all* 'broken' about the two PC's training ranged weapons on an NPC to shoot. I mean, good god, it's the classic 'gun-to-the-head' situation! I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna argue he has 10 seconds to shoot or drop his concentration. Common sense again.

*However*. The NPC also has goals (like staying alive: ). So suddenly he's out of stasis, surrounded by armed and dangerous people--two of which are, basically, pointing 'guns' at his head. Not a friendly way to start an encounter. I would have had the NPC cautiously ask questions, and if the players don't back down their offensive stance *real* quick, then depending on the NPC, the situation, and the responses, probably I would probably have had him get the HELL out of there right quick--simply because weapons were trained on him!

There's consequences to every action. If the players anticipate your moves and do something that's valid to counter them--let them! But also adapt to the situation, and if the PC's ready action has a consequence--feed them that consequence as well.

And finally, the GM is entirely to blame in each of these campaigns with this 'problem' of constantly-readying players. How many slasher-flicks have you watched? The whole point behind them is the music builds, odd sounds are heard, the curtain/doorway/whatever is jerked aside--and nothing is there! Later on, when there's no music to warn you and the protagonist has relaxed a bit, is when the slasher jumps out and attacks. However, in most campaigns (including my own) the GM does very very few, if any, 'false alarms'--and thus the players learn that if the trees rustle, the enemy is about to ambush them. And rightly so! I don't condemn my PCs for that; I have freely chosen not to do too many false alarms in my campaigns, because frankly if not done exactly right they're boring and frustrating for all concerned.

And it's not unreasonable to expect that PCs will be hyperactively alert; I mean, come on! They're wandering through the average dungeon where 2 rooms in 3 has something that's trying to kill them! Wouldn't *you* jump at every noise? I take the attitude that they reacted to the false alarms the same way, and we don't need to roleplay it, just like I won't roleplay every time the PCs need to take a piss (though that would offer great ambush potentials).

Give em their ready action. Really now, what does it hurt?

 

[Storm Raven]

Hmm...it seems that the majority of GMs are *against* their players.

Umm, no. The ability to ready outside of combat, if applied evenly across the board by the DM, will likely screw the players more than it will screw the NPCs. What many DMs seem to do is (counter to the structutre of the rules) allow PCs to ready outside of combat, but don't use this tactics for NPCs, or when they do, acquiesce when the players complain about NPCs doing it.

*However*. The NPC also has goals (like staying alive: ). So suddenly he's out of stasis, surrounded by armed and dangerous people--two of which are, basically, pointing 'guns' at his head. Not a friendly way to start an encounter. I would have had the NPC cautiously ask questions, and if the players don't back down their offensive stance *real* quick, then depending on the NPC, the situation, and the responses, probably I would probably have had him get the HELL out of there right quick--simply because weapons were trained on him!

Right, at which point you roll intiative and move to combat sequencing, since the question becomes "who is better at shifting from non-combat stances to combat stances". Even if you "know" you have a potential enemy in front of you, the shift from "not fighting" to "fighting" is a question of reaction time, a question best resolved in the D&D mechanics by intiative contests.

And it's not unreasonable to expect that PCs will be hyperactively alert; I mean, come on! They're wandering through the average dungeon where 2 rooms in 3 has something that's trying to kill them! Wouldn't *you* jump at every noise?

Right, and the determination as to how well the PCs (and NPCs) react to noises is determined by their initiative, not by whether they can metagame a non-combat readied action to circumvent that mechanic.

Give em their ready action. Really now, what does it hurt?

You mean, other than completely obviating the initiative mechanic and screwing characters who invested their assets into being good at reacting quickly and getting a good initiaitve result?