Readying actions "out of combat"

[Storm Raven]

You are illustrating my point. These are not rules that you are quoting, rather they are suggestions. There are no official ways to resolve these non-standard types of thing, hence, each DM will do his own thing.

So, you are saying that the initiative rules don't appear in the actual rules? Since that is what I suggested using. You know: the rules concerning initiative that you are very eager to toss aside in favor of out of combat readied actions.

Please.

Do not be condescending.

I wouldn't have to appear condescending if you actually read the rules that appear in the SRD, which you quoted. Perhaps you need to learn to read better.

I know of no such rules as those you just stated. They might be in 3.5 (like I mentioned when I posted item #3 above), but I'm fairly sure they were not in 3E. Nor are they in the 3E SRD or the 3.5 SRD (quoted below).

Umm, yeah, they are. You need to read better. From the SRD:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

Let's see. You asked when a readied action was inserted into the initiative order. It is inserted just before the action that triggered it. When you have a series of readied actions, insert them in the order that they were triggered. This is not that hard to figure out if you actually read what is written in the SRD. If you have the same trigger as another character, you use the same initiative order as you would have otherwise with respect to that character, with the character with the higher previous initiaitive going first, since there is nothing to change your order with respect to individuals with the same trigger. Continuing.

If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

When you resolve a series of readied actions, their initiative order is pegged in the same sequence that they took their readied actions, just as is stated here. This is not rocket science. You just don't bother reading very well, preferring to call the rules "unclear" and inventing methods to get around the initiative rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, you are saying that the initiative rules don't appear in the actual rules? Since that is what I suggested using.

You said and I quote:

"Sure, roll initiative. If he doesn't get his combat action first, he "acts first", but everyone reacts to the start of his action before he can complete it. Either that or give him a Bluff check against the other characters to obtain a surprise action, opposed by their Sense Motive checks."

You gave two suggestions here. Which one is the actual rule?

This is not rocket science. You just don't bother reading very well, preferring to call the rules "unclear" and inventing methods to get around the initiative rules.

For someone who keeps claiming that I do not read and I do not understand the rules, you sure as heck do a lot of not reading what people write.

Let me give you an example so that you can understand.

PC party and NPC party in a combat. The PC Wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the NPC Wizard when the Golem dies. The NPC Wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the PC when the Golem dies. The Golem dies. Whose Magic Missile spell gets cast first? Are they simultaneous and hence, neither Wizard can disrupt the spell of the other Wizard? Do you roll some form of initiative?

The rules do not handle this.

Go back and reread my #3 case above:

"and all of their ready triggers go off simultaneously"

What part of simultaneously did you not understand?

Right, at which point you roll intiative and move to combat sequencing, since the question becomes "who is better at shifting from non-combat stances to combat stances". Even if you "know" you have a potential enemy in front of you, the shift from "not fighting" to "fighting" is a question of reaction time, a question best resolved in the D&D mechanics by intiative contests.

Which is not consistent.

In combat, my readied action occurs because the trigger activates. Every time.

Out of combat, my "readied action" occurs possibly before the trigger and possibly after.

Hence, the reason that the "cannot ready out of combat" rule is bad.

Whether the action occurs differs depending on whether you are in combat or not, not depending on whether you are successful or not. Any action you can do in combat you should be able to initiate combat with, including ready actions. It doesn't make sense that there are actions that the characters can do in a "combat mode" that they cannot initiate combat with out of combat.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You said and I quote:

"Sure, roll initiative. If he doesn't get his combat action first, he "acts first", but everyone reacts to the start of his action before he can complete it. Either that or give him a Bluff check against the other characters to obtain a surprise action, opposed by their Sense Motive checks."

You gave two suggestions here. Which one is the actual rule?

The first one is "resolve initiative as normal at the beginning of a fight". Combat rounds are meant to simulate simultaneous actions, remember? So the guy goes for his weapon/takes half a step forward/starts muttering and waving his hands, and everyone else reacts before or after his action completes, depending on whether he won initiative or not.

The second one is in the rules - a successful bluff check causes a target to behave how you want him to for 1 round or less. Like, for instance, not acting for a round. Alternately you could make a hide check to make your opponents unaware of you.

PC party and NPC party in a combat. The PC Wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the NPC Wizard when the Golem dies. The NPC Wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the PC when the Golem dies. The Golem dies. Whose Magic Missile spell gets cast first? Are they simultaneous and hence, neither Wizard can disrupt the spell of the other Wizard? Do you roll some form of initiative?

Simultaneous, neither interrupts. Thereafter they have the same initiative score - "If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first)"-srd

Which is not consistent.

In combat, my readied action occurs because the trigger activates. Every time.

ONLY if you got to ready the action before the target took the triggering action. Out of combat, there are plenty of other things you might want to do instead.

Out of combat, my "readied action" occurs possibly before the trigger and possibly after.

Hence, the reason that the "cannot ready out of combat" rule is bad.

Whether the action occurs differs depending on whether you are in combat or not, not depending on whether you are successful or not. Any action you can do in combat you should be able to initiate combat with, including ready actions. It doesn't make sense that there are actions that the characters can do in a "combat mode" that they cannot initiate combat with out of combat.

Out of combat you don't keep track of movement in terms of move actions, looking around (search, spot and listen), making diplomacy, bluff or intimidate checks in terms of standard actions. IN combat, there are limits on what you can do in a round, and you have to make a hard decision between readying an action and doing something else.

Unless you really want to adjudicate all of the game in constant combat mode, then there has to be a difference between in combat actions and out of combat actions. Part of that difference is that readied actions don't make a lot of sense - either you have the drop on someone and you get to go first, or you don't and you risk it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Simultaneous, neither interrupts. Thereafter they have the same initiative score - "If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first)"-srd

Except that initiative check results are made at the beginning of combat, not in the middle:

3.5 PHB page 136

"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check."

Sure, you could do that in the middle of battle, but that is not the normal rules. That is a house rule. And again, it illustrates my point that there are no rules for simultaneous readies and each DM will do it his own way.

On top of that, if you do initiative checks, then one caster IS winning over the other and he should be able to interrupt the other casters action. If you make them non-simultaneous, then the normal rules should apply.

Unless you really want to adjudicate all of the game in constant combat mode, then there has to be a difference between in combat actions and out of combat actions. Part of that difference is that readied actions don't make a lot of sense - either you have the drop on someone and you get to go first, or you don't and you risk it.

The point you are missing is that a ready action should make just as much sense out of combat as in combat. If I can point a crossbow at your head and shoot you if you decide to cast a spell in combat, I should be able to do that EXACT SAME ACTION out of combat.

However, out of combat, I can only do that if I win initiative (according to the rules). I cannot just do it if I declare that I want to do it and my opponent does not want to "out draw me". Sure, if my opponent wants to try something before I try to point the crossbow at him, we should roll initiative. But, if my opponent does not want to do that (maybe he does not see me or maybe he does not consider my crossbow to be a threat), then I should be able to declare that ready action out of combat.

Having this nebulous metagaming concept of "in combat" and "out of combat" should not affect what can and cannot be done.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

KD,

I see your point, but I really don't see rolling for initiative as a problem. Just because you decide to have a contingency plan outside of combat shouldn't, in my mind anyway, guarantee that you get to go first a la readying an action in combat. If you point a crossbow at someone's head and want to fire if they start casting, well first of all I'd say that as soon as you start to raise your crossbow, it's time to roll for initiative. If the other person is not aware, then combat has started and it's the surprise round. I think it's really that simple. If it's blatant enough what you're doing, roll for initiative. If not, roll a Spot check or whatever to determine whether the opponent is surprised.

Now let's compare that to within combat, because as I understand it you take issue with the fact that outside of combat you'd have to roll, and in combat you wouldn't. Why, then? Well, put simply, you can ready an action after combat has started, and be virtually guaranteed of going first, because you have the initiative. (You can only ready an action on your initiative, after all). It's that simple. Initiative has already been determined, and on your turn, you ready an action. That's why you don't have to roll. When out of combat, no one yet has the advantage. Once in combat, advantage goes to the person with current initiative.

Ok, finally, let's consider what I consider your most interesting question--what happens when two characters ready an action (at different times, because they have different initiative, of course) to occur, ON THE SAME TRIGGER. Like the wizards wanting to MM (or for that matter counterspell) each other. Great question, and to my knowledge it is NOT, strictly speaking covered in the rules (I haven't looked very hard, mind you). Now, there's nothing in the rules to suggest that a) the person who readied first goes first, nor b) the person with the higher Dex goes first. Frankly, once you're readying, your initiative is in limbo except for the fact that if it comes to your turn the next round, you can choose whether to re-ready or do something else. In this case, although the rules are not clear, I would argue for making an initiative roll.

Let me be clear, though: I am not suggesting rerolling for purposes of the person's initiative count in the combat overall, relative to everyone else's initiative. No, I'm suggesting an initiative roll among all of the individuals whose readied actions have been triggered by the same event, just to determine the order in which their actions will take place. Their new initiative count will be that of the trigger, and within that count, in order of those rolls. Note that this new initiative order makes as much sense as the standard rule for giving an individual the same initiative as that of the trigger, going immediately before the trigger. Now, however, you have two or more people all going before the trigger, and the mid-combat initiative roll is made simply to determine the order within that group.

I think it's fair, and while it might sound a little weird, I don't think it comes up that often and it's not really that complicated. It also, I believe, makes the most sense. If you and I are in combat and have readies on the same trigger, what SHOULD influence who goes first other than the same factors that influence the original initiative roll (Dex, relevant feats, randomness)? Alternatively, you could allow for simultaneous readied actions, but then that suggests that to be consistent you should allow simultaneous normal non-readied actions whenever people are tied for combat initiative.

Cheers,
MC

 

[Saeviomagy]

3.5 PHB page 136

"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check."

Except that we've changed initiative check results and need to reevaluate execution order.

The point you are missing is that a ready action should make just as much sense out of combat as in combat. If I can point a crossbow at your head and shoot you if you decide to cast a spell in combat, I should be able to do that EXACT SAME ACTION out of combat.

Which leads to everyone having readied actions all the time. You ready the action to shoot, he's already readied the action to cast, someone else already readied the action to...

You get the point?

However, out of combat, I can only do that if I win initiative (according to the rules). I cannot just do it if I declare that I want to do it and my opponent does not want to "out draw me". Sure, if my opponent wants to try something before I try to point the crossbow at him, we should roll initiative. But, if my opponent does not want to do that (maybe he does not see me or maybe he does not consider my crossbow to be a threat), then I should be able to declare that ready action out of combat.

Why? Ready actions in combat are to fix the fact that the combat system is far too granular to simulate the real world. Without them, there would be a great many tactics to which there would be no response to because of the way that combat rounds work within the system. They're not there so you can maintain a 'drop' on someone.

Having this nebulous metagaming concept of "in combat" and "out of combat" should not affect what can and cannot be done.

In the interests of simplicity, it should.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Ok, finally, let's consider what I consider your most interesting question--what happens when two characters ready an action (at different times, because they have different initiative, of course) to occur, ON THE SAME TRIGGER. [ ... ] In this case, although the rules are not clear, I would argue for making an initiative roll.

I agree with almost your entire post, especially your analysis of "initiative advantage." That's exactly why you can Ready in combat, but have to either gain surprise or win initiative out of combat: in combat, you're actually giving up something ... your earlier action. Out of combat, you have no advantage.

(Note, however, that I do believe it's appropriate to continue going round-by-round in situations like an able wizard being covered by a crossbow, even if there're no actual attack rolls going on. Staying "in combat" in such situations would allow the Readied action. But eventually the guy covering has to relax, or gets distracted, or whatever, which is what always allows Jack Bauer to escape from under the gun barrel ... but I digress.)

Strangely, though, you don't extrapolate to the "simultaneous Ready" problem, which seems to me an obvious next step. The first person to Ready had the advantage. He should keep that advantage over someone else who later Readies on the same trigger. I.e., IMO the first wizard resolves first, has the possibility of disrupting the other spell, and ends up ahead of the other wizard in the initiative order.