Real life beasts that need more attention

[der_kluge]

Am I the only one who read this title as

Real life breasts that need more attention?


Imagine my disappointment.

 

[F5]

...as anyone who rides horseback recreationally, for instance, can point out where the present present write-up falls short.

Speaking as someone who has never ridden horseback, can you go into more detail about how the write-up falls short? I'm curious...

I have a theory that a lot of the apparently lackluster treatment real-world animals get in the Monster Manual was done out of a desire to preserve game balance than out of ignorance, but my own ignorance makes it difficult to back up that theory...

I think the designers know full well how much damage a donkey can do with a hind-kick, for example, but didn't want to put that kind of damage potential in the hands of low-level characters and dirt-farmer NPCs.

It's kind of a fine line to walk, not so much between real-world and fantasy-world, but rather between real-world and game-world.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

All I wish is that, when they put real animals, modern or prehistoric, into a sourcebook, they made a reasonable effort to give them appropriate stats, feats, and natural abilities. In most instances this would involve a trip to the library or a conversation with someone experienced in handling animals - not necessarily even a professional, as anyone who rides horseback recreationally, for instance, can point out where the present present write-up falls short. "They" simply aren't interested. God knows why. Research is fun and generates ideas far better than any amount of sitting around making things up. (I know whereof I speak - do the appropriate research, and the novel practically drafts itself.)

I'm sure the weapons-mavins on the board have similar complaints about the treatment of weapons stats, exotic weapons, etc.

Yes, I know it's a fantasy game. The distinction between "fantasy" and "divorced from reality" is an important one. The first is refreshing, fun, and healthy; the second is annoying, dull, and counterproductive.

Consider, however, how often real world critters come up in the game. More often than not, adventurers are taking on humanoids, dragons, undead, and misc other critters that don't have any equivalent in reality. So, completely accurate animal stats, while certainly a fascinating project, wouldn't see much practical use in the game. A horse, for example, is just a means of transportation for most characters. For those who use them as animal companions or special mounts, the class features that add to their natural abilities quickly make the base stats fairly irrelevant.

A more useful, in pure game terms, application for this, would be to take the appropriate research for animals and apply some of it to the fantasy critters as well. A hippogriff for example, being a bird-horse hybrid, would benefit from research into both species.

 

[sjmiller]

Consider, however, how often real world critters come up in the game. More often than not, adventurers are taking on humanoids, dragons, undead, and misc other critters that don't have any equivalent in reality.

Many people, at least in my experience, don't use real world animals because they can't find decent stats on them. Because people don't use them and talk about them, the game companies don't make more. It's a self-realizing situation. I try and incorporate a good amout of contact, violent and non-violent, with real world creatures. I would do more, but re-inventing the wheel gets boring.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the designers know full well how much damage a donkey can do with a hind-kick, for example, but didn't want to put that kind of damage potential in the hands of low-level characters and dirt-farmer NPCs.

I bet there's a lot of truth in this. I've certainly known players who throw endless attack dogs at problems until they reach a level where it doesn't work any more. A donkey that could kill a trog with one kick would be a very, very popular addition to groups.

 

[Huw]

Am I the only one who read this title as

Real life breasts that need more attention?


Imagine my disappointment.

Feel free to start a new thread. The depiction of breasts in fantasy art could do with a touch of reality

Anyone want to start a rant about breasts on non-mammalian monsters?

 

[Andor]

Well part of the reason for the inacurate stats is the artificial cap of 2 for animal intelligence. That one annoys me. A character with an Int of 3 is usually played (IME) as so stupid that they mostly drool and swing an axe. At an enemy if you're lucky. Most animals are smarter than that, outside of Sheep and domestic Turkeys.

Incidently, speaking of dangerous real world animals I got stung yesterday by a freaking caterpiller and now half my arm is covered with what looks and feels exactly like a second degree burn.... Friggin' bug.

 

[Nyeshet]

I use Betabunny's "Predators." As such, I tend to use animals more often than core rules might suggest or presume.

That said, wolves are first on my list. Note that while they are CR 1, this presumes a party of four. Against a single first level human fighter, barbarian, etc a single wolf can be a notable foe.

But wolves rarely run alone. They run in packs of 7 - 16 (according to the SRD). So, what is the encounter rating for, say 8 wolves? What about 12 wolves? 16 wolves? Sure, once the party is around levels 8 - 10 a pack of wolves - even if 16 - is no longer a real threat (due to magic - both enhancements and spells), but at that level neither are a hundred first level warriors much of a threat either. The PCs by this level are legendary super-heroes (or super-villains, as the case may be).

Still, wolves seem remarkably underused at levels 4 - 8. A pack of 12 to 16 wolves should still be a notable challenge by that level, especially if you advance the HD of the lead wolf a couple die &/or give a few of the wolves elite arrays instead of the sub-par array of 10s and 11s.


[Edit]Having thought about it a bit, I believe I recall the rules for CR adjustment as +1 for each doubling the number of foes of a given CR. So, by this ruling, 2 wolves is CR 2, 4 wolves is CR 3, 8 wolves is CR 4, and 16 wolves is CR 5. So a large pack is a 'normal' challenge for a group of four 5th level PCs. I wonder how that would work out in play-testing? On the other hand, in a pack of that size (16), I would - as a GM - likely give an elite array to, say, 88 of the wolves and then a further +1 HD to 4 of the 8 elites and a +2 HD to 2 of the remaining 4 elites - the alpha male and female wolf. I would probably presume (excluding winter time) that 2d6 pups exist back at the pack's din, guarded by, say 4 female wolves of normal HD and array.

So, in total, the 16 member pack as I envision it would perhaps work out to a CR 6 instead of a CR 5 - presuming CR 5 is the true CR for a pack of 16 wolves.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Now I'm totally picturing an adventure where the BBEE (encounter) is a pack of wolves. Could set it up so that the party has to travel through a wintery forest with a deadline in place. Have them come on a bloody kill, then slowly start to work in the fear -- the wolves were still nearby... & now they're hunting THEM. No 'going to ground' in shelter because of the deadline, so they're continually moving... exposed... with glimpses of movement in the woods around them as they travel.

Perhaps they come on a farmstead that the wolves have attacked, with one or two survivors boarded up inside; they convince the party that it must not be normal wolves (but drop hints to the players that it could be, like how harsh the winter is & how game has been scarce). Build the fear, then let them see just how scary a full pack of normal wolves can be... & from time to time throughout the rest of their campaign, play on the memory with a distant howl in the night.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm a huge fan of animals for Modern ... but it's just pretty hard to make animals dangerous. It's not that an animal can't rip someone to shreds (providing they're not in full plate or something) but that most "vicious" animals aren't that vicious.

You can have a particularly vicious gorilla*, for instance, but most gorillas are more afraid of you than you are of them, so you can't use them that often in combat.

* As an example.

Maybe we need a "reason why this animal might attack" for each one, including the perennial favorite - magic!