D&D 5E Realism and Simulationism in 5e: Is D&D Supposed to be Realistic?

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Which is the point of view that the people bent on "realism" take. It's not mine, btw, just trying to explain it.

The problem is not that some people want to imagine a world in which physics are way more complicated because of magic, the problem is that they want to fit magic into the currently understood laws of physics, and it simply is incompatible, just as the black body problem was totally incompatible with newtonian physics until quanta were thought of.
1.) I do not believe when people talk about "realism" they are refering to the fairly arcane and specific dogma of physicalism. I think that they mean is that things ought to conform to the PSR, (even though they probably don't know what the PSR is).

2.) That is precisely my point, but you're phrasing it as a reply rather than affirmation of something I've already said.
 

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p_johnston

Adventurer
So in terms of Realism and Verisimilitude I thinks it more a matter of where you (and your group) draw the line then a hard yes or no.

We live in the real world. We all understand (to varying degrees) how it works. I know that most people can pick up a rock but not a car. I know that falling off a roof can break my leg but that falling off my couch won't (usually). Etc, etc.

In D&D we have dragons, magic, elves, and gods. We have all these fantastical magical things that are different then in the real world. But unless it's stated to be different somewhere we have to assume, to at least some degree, that most things still follow the same rules and logic as our real world. D&D still has gravity and buoyancy. We assume that Newtons laws still apply for the most part unless the world, rules, or GM state otherwise. We have to assume that such real world rules still apply, unless otherwise stated, in order to have a basic framework from which to work from.


I know that my wizard can cast firebolt (creating fire from thin air), I know that my druid can turn into a cat 1/10 his size. I know these exceptions to what is normally possible apply because they are specifically stated by the rules. Beyond that I can't assume really much of anything. It's up to each group to decide at what point the rules of reality stop applying.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The problem is not that some people want to imagine a world in which physics are way more complicated because of magic, the problem is that they want to fit magic into the currently understood laws of physics, and it simply is incompatible, just as the black body problem was totally incompatible with newtonian physics until quanta were thought of.
I want to fit magic into the currently understood laws of physics, or at the very least have it be able to seamlessly operate alongside said laws, and so I gave it some thought and came up with a few new laws of physics that apply in magical places of which - due in part to those same laws - real-world Earth is not one.

On that chassis I can build whatever I want. :)

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As for realism in general, two things:

First, the OP redefining the word "realism" to mean something other than reflecting real-world reality doesn't help the discussion one bit, as now we have to come up with a new term to fill in where "realism" just was: the idea that the game setting has a real-world (or at least real-universe) grounding and that, using the principle of specific overrides general, things work there as they do here unless something says otherwise. The advantage of this is that a whole bunch of very basic things can simply be assumed rather than written out, in that the rules only need to deal with - and be - the "something says otherwise" parts.

Someone upthread mentioned game-world gravity as being something that isn't realistic due to falling damage. I counter this by suggesting gravity in all ways other than falling damage works by default just like it does here, and that it's the rules-based abstraction of falling damage which is faulty.

Second, I think the underlying premise that says realism-simulationism-whateverism is simply an attempt to force reality into the game system is backward, in that it's assuming the game system takes priority and that when they come into conflict it's the in-setting reality that has to bend to suit it. I prefer to look at it the other way around: that the game system in its entirety is simply an attempt to model and abstract the in-setting reality and thus when there's a conflict it's the game system that has to bend to suit because the priority is to preserve the integrity of the in-setting reality.

Yes there will be unavoidable places where the in-setting reality cannot be reflected well by the abstracted game system and-or where the game system has to have its say in order to remain playable, and that's fine. But where there's a choice between system (or at-table convenience) and in-setting reality, I say go with the in-setting reality and in so doing make the whole thing more believable and consistent. A good and easy example is fireballs that conveniently pixellate themselves into 5' squares - sure this makes things easier at the table but as it makes no sense whatsoever in the setting I'd choose not to use this model.

Same thing with tracking rations, torches, ammo, etc. - yes it's convenient at the table to ignore these things but doing so violates setting integrity (and, IMO, good-faith play; but that's another issue entirely) and thus I expect at least some attempt at tracking them.
 
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CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
I agree with your conclusion that the realism arguments aren’t really about realism but about the direction of the game. However, I don’t agree that the desire for “realism” in races is necessarily, or even usually, about wanting race to allow for meaningful choices at character generation. In my experience, the people most invested in retaining character creation restrictions are the people least invested in the character building mini-game. Folks who get very invested in the character generation mini-game typically want their characters to be highly customizable, and choice of race hampering certain class options gets in the way of that customizability. I think the argument is less about whether or not D&D should move away from race being a meaningful build choice, and more about whether or not D&D should move towards being able to make whatever character you want, as you imagine it.

There’s also a culture war element to the argument. I don’t think we need to rehash it here, but I think it bears acknowledging.
I’d argue that the people who want fixed ASI or inflexible character building rather than not caring about character creation it’s a matter of caring about verisimilitude of the world, and on the other side of things the people who want free character building don’t necessarily care about character creation they just want to play what they want to play with as little resistance to making their concept as mechanically effective as possible, because nothing actually stopped you from making your halfling barbarian or your 3.xE -INT orc wizard except from the player designing them’s intolerance of them not being quite as effective as a more predisposed race for those classes

I’d argue that the person who calls for more restrictions for character creation and then builds the character that goes against the grain anyway is the person most invested in character creation because they stick to their concept’s integrity despite the hinderances it is afflicted by.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
If you are looking holistically at the way your world works, it's not a question of category, energy should be energy whether it comes from "real world" physics or "magical" sources.

The First Law of Thermodynamics - energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed into other energy - is a modern (okay, technically 19th century) concept. Much of the mythology our games are inspired by predate it by centuries to millennia.

There should not be any reason for magic to be different, for a given consistent setting.

But, since it is MAGIC, there is no reason for it to be the same, either. It would seem to me that invoking magic is primarily done to have things that don't fit the norm happen. "People can't fly, so... magic!" If you are going to then turn around and re-impose non-magic... why did we bother invoking magic?
 
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Because D&D is completely indifferent to any concerns of realism you really should check with your GM about whether certain things apply. For example, does your character need to eat and drink? Do they need warm clothing in a cold environment? Do they need a boat to travel across the ocean or can they just walk across? All these are things which we can't take for granted as D&D is a fantasy game.
 


Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Because D&D is completely indifferent to any concerns of realism you really should check with your GM about whether certain things apply. For example, does your character need to eat and drink? Do they need warm clothing in a cold environment? Do they need a boat to travel across the ocean or can they just walk across? All these are things which we can't take for granted as D&D is a fantasy game.

Don't forget the ravages of tooth decay. Do they brush? With what? For how long? Up and down or back and forth?
 


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