Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

[Bedrockgames]

Umm, haven't you been paying attention?

There's multiple examples in this thread of using surges to get exactly what you want.

But, Traditional HP don't give me what I want. They don't achieve HP as mojo because the healing rates don't make any sense if HP are mojo. Why on earth does it take me a week to get my mojo back? Or, rather, any period of time is equally understandable - be it short or long.

Fair enough. I wasn't being entirely serious in this post just trying to show how annoying this kind of argumentation can be.

But i will say this. You are right, traditional HP probably dont give you the kind of mojo sim you are looking for. But just because examples were offered to make surges simulate hp as damage, that doesn't mean anyone here found those examples persuasive at all. Surges still dont do what I want. And people asserting that my needs are now satisfied because they've supplies a convoluted explaination, example or fix doesn't cut it for me.

When I look at the combat examples in the books, I see lots and lots of numbers with virtually no attention paid to the idea of how serious a wound actually is. I'll have to dig up my Mentzer Basic book again, but, IIRC, the "actual play" example doesn't really dwell too terribly much on the details of hit point loss.

And, let's be honest here, considering the amount of verbiage we're talking about, I'm very, very sure that we could play dueling quotations for a LONG time without resolving anything. I mean, heck, people have been pretty content entirely ignoring the AD&D DMG definition of HP throughout this thread, why would people start paying attention to what's actually in the books now?

this is a fair point, dueling quotes isn't going to get us anywhere. And frank it would probably be a giant waste of everyone's time to spend an hour quote seeking for something that we both probaboy agree doesn't change the debate that much.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I mean, heck, people have been pretty content entirely ignoring the AD&D DMG definition of HP throughout this thread, why would people start paying attention to what's actually in the books now?

I think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that people just skim though the book for the basics and just make up/improved the rest. Another is that even if you did fully read it, it was inconstant in many ways. While the definition of HP is said to be abstract, the spells and such implied that HP was physical damage.

4E was like, "hey, when you think about the HP system, it's really an abstract system designed to produce fun gameplay. Okay, let's make 4E like that!"

I also suspect the Coconut Effect.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think saying Warlord "healing peptalk" can only heal you up to your bloodied value it would have been much less jarring for me personally. OTOH I have never refused Warlord healing in the 4E games i've played

I was really intrigued by the Warlord when 4e came out, and created one as my first characters. Initially, like a lot of the current naysayers, I was reluctant to embrace the idea that Inspiring Word was as much healing as traditional clerical magic. At first, I would try to use it on allies who were down a good chunk of hps (enough that the extra healing wouldn't be 'wasted), but not 'bloodied.' It was feasible enough since we also had a cleric to stand up past-bloodied or dropped enemies, but it was merely a self-imposed limit.

As we talked about what 'bloodied' and 'dying' represented in the course of describing combat scenes, and considered the simple fact that a second wind could heal you from bloodied or a natural 20 on a death save get you up from dropped, it seemed more reasonable to me. Finally, there was a skirmish with goblins in which our rogue was a little too daring and got himself dropped in a fight that really shouldn't have been that tough. I RP'd the Inspiring Word amusingly, something like "You're not fooling anyone, that goblin hardly touched you, get up and fight!" And it was a cool moment.

After that we were fine with it. It's just so classic, the downed hero getting some encouragement and getting back into the fight. Very cinematic, and often quite fun or dramatic at the table.

 

[BryonD]

It's a particularly dramatic example. It is far from the only example.

It is pretty well unique.

OTOH, D&D-style in-combat clerical healing isn't exactly a staple of any genre. While heroes coming back from the brink or appearance of death is a positive cliche of action movies and pulp adventure.

The idea that healing comes form a source rather than "poof" is the point.

Not really, because the hp system is utterly dependent on healing to get everyone through each fight, often even minor fights. In older versions of the game, that healing was exclusively magical and external. Your hero couldn't fight through his wounds without the Cleric's Cure...Wounds every other round. Not very heroic. Now, he can.

I completely dispute your claim about anything even CLOSE to "every other round". And I'd add that making wounds vanish is (again) the opposite of "heroic"

Are you saying healing wasn't vital in prior eds? Or that 4e didn't give each character some self-healing ability?

I don't know what you're talking about. Surges were a fundamental change, but hardly a 'vast' one. PCs still get through combats with healing. There are just more sources of it, and the ultimate limit on healing is in each character, not in the Cleric's spells/day. Not a vast change, but a vast improvement if judged by any measure other than nostalgia.

Again, that may be YOUR personal experience. But it was quite "vast" to MANY people.

 

[Hussar]

But i will say this. You are right, traditional HP probably dont give you the kind of mojo sim you are looking for. But just because examples were offered to make surges simulate hp as damage, that doesn't mean anyone here found those examples persuasive at all. Surges still dont do what I want. And people asserting that my needs are now satisfied because they've supplies a convoluted explaination, example or fix doesn't cut it for me.

Fair enough.

Then show me how I can get what I want out of your system. Because, otherwise, you're basically saying that your needs are more important than anyone elses.

It's been shown numerous times that healing surges can be changed to fit traditional healing mechanics. It's not difficult, nor does it require any real work on the part of the DM. It's a couple of minor tweaks and Bjorn Strongingthearm is your uncle.

Now, show me how I can, with a few minor changes, make traditional healing work for me.

 

[Mercutio01]

Now, show me how I can, with a few minor changes, make traditional healing work for me.

You simply add healing surges back into your game? That's the simplest one. Additive design elements make more sense than subtractive ones and take a lot less work to create and use. Given two options, it is almost always easier to add than to take away. Core assumption of no surges with surges as an add-on module is way easier to balance than to assume surges, base entire healing systems on that, and then try to take them out.

 

[Hussar]

You simply add healing surges back into your game? That's the simplest one. Additive design elements make more sense than subtractive ones and take a lot less work to create and use. Given two options, it is almost always easier to add than to take away. Core assumption of no surges with surges as an add-on module is way easier to balance than to assume surges, base entire healing systems on that, and then try to take them out.

Walk me through this.

How do I add 4e style healing and healing surges to 3e HP mechanics? Remember, I want in combat healing with surges as part of resource management. I also want martial healing and 4e pacing.

 

[Mercutio01]

You take the existing healing surge rules and port them in, pretty much unchanged. Maybe lower the surge values because of the HP bloat of 4E. Otherwise, there really isn't much to change going up. And yes, I really think it's that easy.

Now, give me the reverse. Give me 2E style HP without healing surges and non-martial healing. As in, I don't want it at all. Not even a hint of it. I want an honest assessment for how I can actively remove the surges completely from the game. I don't want some nonsense about reflavoring the surges to compensate for my dislike of how they work. I just don't want them at all in my game.

It's not as simple as just lopping off the surges.

 

[Hussar]

Before I answer that Mercutio01, can I ask why you want to completely remove surges? What is your goal here? What do you want HP to be in your game? I'm not dodging your question, I'm just curious what the core issue is. What are you trying to do?

As far as porting surges back in directly, that's a bit tricky. Monster design doesn't work that way. Traditional HP monsters need to be able to do considerable damage per round relative to the PC. Traditional HP's are higher than Surge HP at mid to high level, since Surge HP's aren't affected by Con, nor are there any real ways of increasing your HP per level. A 10th level fighter with 18 Con in 4e has (33+9*6=) 88 HP. A 3e 10th level fighter likely has considerably more than that simply because his Con will be magically augmented. It's not unreasonable for a 10th level 3e fighter to have over 100 HP.

Thus, 3e creatures need to deal more damage in order to be a credible threat. So, your traditional HP monsters actually don't really work because they kill my Surge PC's too quickly. You'd have to adjust the damage of every single monster.

 

[Mercutio01]

Before I answer that Mercutio01, can I ask why you want to completely remove surges? What is your goal here? What do you want HP to be in your game? I'm not dodging your question, I'm just curious what the core issue is. What are you trying to do?

No, see, that's specifically what I asked you not to do. You're trying to appease 2E and 4E gamers by telling 2E gamers to get with the program and just like surge mechanics already. That's not the right answer.

Still, I'll answer it anyway. I don't like the surge mechanic. I don't like the idea that my magical healing is limited by my own personal ability to be magically healed. If a cleric heals me, why should one of my resources be used up? I don't like it mechanically.

I don't like it from a fluff standpoint. I don't think there should be some sort of inherent limitation in the number of times I can be magically healed in one day that is tied to me personally.

I happen to like the 2E healing mechanics pretty much as written. I even like the 3E one rules (minus the bag of holding full of healsticks, which is an abuse of the system, imho) as written.

In summary, I don't like the fluff, but I could get over that if I cared for the mechanics, which I don't. I also don't like the inflated HP counts of 4E (and to a large extent 3E/PF) that necessitate larger attack/damage values and continue in a cycle.

Now, as to the point of the HP, I did address that specifically. You lower the base HP to pre-4E levels (probably closer to 2E levels would be nice), and those the surge values would also drop. The corresponding decreases would also dovetail nicely with the stated and implied goals of the lowered attack and damage value curves that the designers have discussed.