'Realistic' Arrangement of Ability Scores

[silentspace]

My understanding is that symmetry is the universal trait for "beauty". If you take the ideas of beauty within each culture, the more symmetrical people are considered beautiful. This is independent of cultural practices (rings, foot binding, what-have-you).

If I recall that study correctly, that study was specifically a study of models (in the U.S., I believe), and what, if anything, was a distinguishing characteristic of models. The finding was that models' faces were more symmetrical on average than the general population's. The study did not address different cultures, though intuitively I would think that it probably applies across cultures. Still, I'm not sure I would consider a black-toothed, scarified native south american tribewoman beautiful, regardless of how symmetrical her face was. But then again, I'm culturally biased.

 

[mmadsen]

I think the key word here is "largely". I believe one study distilled it down to only one trait that could be termed "universal", and that was the proportion of waist to hips in females. Other than that, there are many huge differences in the perception of beauty.

A few things we know about beauty:

• People in the same culture strongly agree about who is beautiful and who is not. (This is true even of primitive cultures without modern mass media.)
• Age and gender of the observer have little affect on how the observer judges beauty.
• Across cultures, people find the following traits attractive in women: big eyes, small mouth, high cheekbones, full lips, larger hips than waist, etc.
• People find other people of similar appearance more attractive -- but they can easily tell who is more attractive within another group; e.g., South American tribesmen can tell which white American women are more attractive by white American standards.

Thus, a Masai tribeswoman will declare a typical Masai woman more attractive than a typical Japanese woman, but she'll recognize that the beautiful Japanese woman (as defined by other Japanese) is more attractive than the ugly Japanese woman.

We can model this with a single Attractiveness stat and a simple (universal) matrix of which cultures are similar to which others. As a modern American, I might be turned off by neck rings and lip plugs, but I can still tell who's "hot" (or not) in the African tribe.

 

[dagger]

This is from Skills and Powers....


Stamina
The Stamina subability score determines muscle efficiency. A character with a Stamina score higher than his Muscle score may not have masses of huge muscles, but the muscles he has will be rock hard. Characters like these may surprise others—not because they can lift four hay bales at once, but because they can lift one or two at a time for 10 hours straight.

Muscle
The Muscle subability measures the sheer power a character can exert at a moment's notice. A character with a Muscle score higher than his Stamina score will look quite strong. Males will have bulging biceps, broad chests, and wide shoulders. While females don't generate the muscle mass of males, they will have well-defined, strongly toned forms.

Aim
A character with a high Aim score might be an expert marksman or a sleight-of-hand artist.

Balance
A character possessing a high Balance score may be an acrobat or a tightrope walker. A new rule for the PLAYER'S OPTION system is that all unarmored warrior and rogue characters gain an additional +2 bonus to armor class while unencumbered. This bonus is in addition to any the characters might receive for high Balance scores.

Health
A character with a high Health score would seldom get sick and be little affected by allergies and other ailments.

Fitness
A character with a high Fitness score has great endurance and can suffer more damage than other characters while continuing to function.

Reason
This ability defines how well a character handles new information. A character with a high Reason score would be good at solving riddles and puzzles, and would be talented at using deductive, logical thinking.

Knowledge
This score is a measurement of the character's educational experiences—whether in a school or on the streets, his grasp of languages, and his memory capacity. A character with a high Knowledge score can speak many languages, knows something about several subjects, and can remember the slightest detail of a past event.

Intuition
A character with a high Intuition score likely would be very perceptive and good at making educated guesses, and would be difficult to fool or lie to effectively.

Willpower
This score gauges a character's strength of will, ability to resist magical forces, and sense of commitment to a cause. A character with a high Willpower would be difficult to harm with mind-affecting magic spells, could be quite stubborn, and would resist interrogation.

Leadership
A character with a high Leadership often may be a group's leader, or at least its spokesman. Generals and those who can calm or incite a mob with a few words all have good Leadership scores.

Appearance
This determines the physical presence and attractiveness of the character. A character with a high Appearance score would be handsome or beautiful, perhaps even famous for outstanding looks (such as Helen of Troy).

 

[Thanee]

It depends on what we want to model. Do we want a system where you can easily build an expert archer (or rifleman) or craftsman who isn't nimble? If so, you'll probably want to break out Dexterity and Agility.

My prime example here is the dwarf.

Dwarves are definitely not very agile.

But I simply cannot see how dwarves can't have a great manual dexterity.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mmadsen]

On the general discussion, probably the simplest and most accurate method would be to get rid of stats altogether. [...] For example, if your character is strong, instead of having a strength score he instead has higher values in Jump, Climb, Melee Damage, Carrying Capacity, Swim, etc. You could then more custom tailor where your character talents are.

This leads to an extremely complex model though. Ideally, a few stats would paint a fairly accurate picture of most characters.

Now, if classes actually defined exactly which skills (and how many ranks) a character had, then a "stat" like "Mongolian Steppe Rider 4" might paint all the picture you need.

 

[Thanee]

I like this. A lot.

Thank you!

Bye
Thanee

 

[silentspace]

A few things we know about beauty:

• People in the same culture strongly agree about who is beautiful and who is not. (This is true even of primitive cultures without modern mass media.)
• Age and gender of the observer have little affect on how the observer judges beauty.
• Across cultures, people find the following traits attractive in women: big eyes, small mouth, high cheekbones, full lips, larger hips than waist, etc.
• People find other people of similar appearance more attractive -- but they can easily tell who is more attractive within another group; e.g., South American tribesmen can tell which white American women are more attractive by white American standards.

Thus, a Masai tribeswoman will declare a typical Masai woman more attractive than a typical Japanese woman, but she'll recognize that the beautiful Japanese woman (as defined by other Japanese) is more attractive than the ugly Japanese woman.

We can model this with a single Attractiveness stat and a simple (universal) matrix of which cultures are similar to which others. As a modern American, I might be turned off by neck rings and lip plugs, but I can still tell who's "hot" (or not) in the African tribe.

I really have a hard time accepting this, as it disagrees with both my academic studies and my personal experiences.

However, there is no doubt that in modern times, mass communications have done a great job in transmitting the Western/American standard of beauty/culture/lifestyle throughout the world, so that it is easily recognizable by all.

Edit: I do agree with many of your statements, I'm just too lazy to separate them out

 

[mmadsen]

I really have a hard time accepting this, as it disagrees with both my academic studies and my personal experiences.

However, there is no doubt that in modern times, mass communications have done a great job in transmitting the Western/American standard of beauty/culture/lifestyle throughout the world, so that it is easily recognizable by all.

Many of the findings involved primitive tribes with little or no access to western media.

Hot or Not?: Genes vs. Culture & Taste provides an excerpt from Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty that summarizes findings on Universal Beauty.

 

[mmadsen]

My prime example here is the dwarf. Dwarves are definitely not very agile. But I simply cannot see how dwarves can't have a great manual dexterity.

Yes, that's an excellent example of exactly the kind of thing a fantasy RPG system should model.

That reminds me -- tangentially -- of something else D&D doesn't model well: big, slow giants. Since Strength adds to melee to-hit bonuses, ogres and giants hit all the time, which just doesn't feel right. I'd like them to miss most of the time, but hit really, really hard when they do connect.

 

[mmadsen]

Back in the 80's Mayfair games made a superhero RPG licensed with the DC universe. They had the following : Physical Stats, Mental Stats, and Spiritual Stats, and each one of them had three categories, the action stat, the force stat, and the resister stat.

I agree that the system demonstrates a certain elegance -- but it's not particularly grounded in reality. In the physical and mental cases, the force and resist stats should probably be folded in together. In the spiritual stats, well, who knows?