Realistic Combat

[mmadsen]

It's easy... The Intimidate skill already has a basis for it: [...] Just expand that to include more options... Allow the opponent to be frightened or panicked if you beat the opponenet's check by a lot. Allow the effect to last longer than a single round. Allow a character to make the check as a swift action, or as a part of another action (spellcasting and certain types of attacks come to mind).

Perhaps it got lost in all the (im)moderation, but that is what I suggested earlier:

Under the current rules, for instance, a successful intimidate check leaves the target shaken for 1 round, when it should probably leave them shaken indefinitely, potentially frightened, and even panicked.​

The Intimidate check is opposed not by a Will save, but by a modified level check: 1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear.

It might make sense to make Intimidate checks against the target's Intimidate skill -- and redefine Intimidate to mean Posture, in the sense used by Grossman: convincing oneself of one's prowess while daunting one's enemy.

But we'd need a better sounding verb than Posture to replace Intimidate, to convey both courage and ferocity.

 

[iwatt]

It might make sense to make Intimidate checks against the target's Intimidate skill -- and redefine Intimidate to mean Posture, in the sense used by Grossman: convincing oneself of one's prowess while daunting one's enemy.

Well, Iron Heroes does this. You can resist Intimidate with Intimidate, or a Level+Wis check. My "problem" with this, is that it makes Intimidate very valuable, and skill points are not that easy to come by in D&D.

I guess the best way to handle it is to give everybody a Posture (for lack of a better name) Score, with certain modifiers applied to it. Maybe even come up with a BPB (Base Posture Bonus) for PCs and monsters. You could use your Posture score or Intimidate, to cause/resist fear.

 

[mmadsen]

I don't have it in me to make a rule that might force them to flee.

Heroes of Horror recommends redefining frightened to get around this problem and to increase the distinction between frightened and panicked. Instead of having frightened mean -2 to rolls and you must run away, it can instead mean -4 to rolls.

This actually ties in with one of the Meta-Mechanics Worth Stealing, Grim Tales' fight or flight mechanic:

When faced with something that provokes a horror check, characters have a choice -- flee, and then face an easier check, or stand their ground and risk the consequences. The kicker is that each player decides in secret, and everything is revealed at once. Watching one guy stand his ground while his comrades flee is just priceless.​

 

[Pbartender]

Well, Iron Heroes does this. You can resist Intimidate with Intimidate, or a Level+Wis check. My "problem" with this, is that it makes Intimidate very valuable, and skill points are not that easy to come by in D&D.

It's not as bad as you think... having the option of using the Level + Wisdom check makes the difference.

The other way would be to do it like Bluff vs. Sense feinting... The defender may add his BAB to his Intimidate (or Sense Motive or Will save or whatever) check to oppose.

 

[mmadsen]

And it can be argued that this adds realism OR it adds a more cinematic feel or even both. A high level character WILL wade through ranks of orcs with the added damage. At the same time, if the character is caught unarmored, he is actually vulnerable to the damage of say, a knife of even a low level character, they stand to take significant damage. And lastly, if they get cornered by a a real badass high level villain, even if he is only wielding a knife, they still have a fight on their hands as his skill with the blade makes every strike crippling.

This points out some of the odd decisions that went into D&D's design: hit points go up dramatically with level (and without magic), to-hit goes up, damage doesn't really, AC doesn't really, etc.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure people have tried adding the to-hit margin to damage before; I'm not sure how it played out. Obviously characters need many more hit points to keep things comparable.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Plenty of cinematic heroes are so cinematic because they stare down their enemies and win the fight before it even begins. Also, a lot of cool-looking combat gear -- plumed helms, war standards, etc. -- is cool-looking specifically in order to be literally awesome.

Imagine a glowing magical sword offering +4 to intimidate...

Or plumed helms, war standards, horns, drums…! Great Idea!

 

[Korgoth]

This points out some of the odd decisions that went into D&D's design: hit points go up dramatically with level (and without magic), to-hit goes up, damage doesn't really, AC doesn't really, etc.

But originally, hit dice (incl. Con bonus) topped out at 9th level. So beyond that hit point additions were only incremental. That kept a lid on the whole 3-digit hp problem.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

In the core rules, one of the many types of modifiers is named the morale modifier. Pretty much the only situations it come up in are with bard spells, and a few cleric spells. It's fairly easy to arbitrate morale bonuses and penalties as a DM without a mechanical rule. However, if a rule is what is desired, I suggest looking at the mechanics of frightful presence and the fear spell as guidelines. For a particularly demoralizing effect, apply fear (as the spell) in a 30 ft. radius (or, alternately, to all opponents within visual range) for 3d6 rounds (as per the frightful presence description), with a DC decided by the DM, with all relevant Intimidate modifiers, etc. The opposed roll could be a Will save or a level-based check, whichever makes more sense for you.

Now, for the psychological results of prolonged exposure to combat, I suggest taking a look at Cthulu's rules for sanity

 

[Brother MacLaren]

But originally, hit dice (incl. Con bonus) topped out at 9th level. So beyond that hit point additions were only incremental. That kept a lid on the whole 3-digit hp problem.

Yeah, and there were a few other factors keeping HP lower back then, at least for BECM. The HD cap, the smaller HD for most classes, the less generous stat-rolling methods, the absence of racial/template bonuses to stats, and the absence of stat-boosting magic items made PC hp totals FAR lower than they are now. With 13-15 Con (a fair chance of your second-highest stat being in this range): A 20th-level fighter would average about 71 hp, wizard 43, cleric 52, thief 54.

 

[Lanefan]

There's a few ways to tweak the game mechanics to add in tiny shreds of realism without sacrificing very much:

1. Re-roll initiative each round. (and maybe cut back on or remove Improved Initiative, as it becomes much more powerful)

2. If you have more than one action in a round (e.g. multiple attacks) each gets its own initiative; proviso being the same action cannot happen twice on the same initiative (thus if you get two attacks with the same weapon the initiatives have to be different but if you're attacking with two weapons the initiatives can be the same if the dice say so). Both 1 and 2 here try to get away from my-turn your-turn combat, which is utterly unrealistic.

3. Go to a wound/vitality system (we call it body points and fatigue points); in 3e your 1st-level unadjusted hit points can be your b.p., everything else is f.p. Body points are harder to heal back as they represent real physical damage; f.p. are easier to heal/rest back as they represent minor nicks, cuts, scratches, and general wear and tear...and fatigue (though I gather in 3e fatigue already has a specific meaning; need a new term for this).

3a. Once you're on a b.p.-f.p. system, accounting within the hit-point system for things like limb loss etc. becomes much easier. I mean, right now, how does the game handle it if your PC loses a leg? (and vorpal weapons become much more interesting if they can cut off parts other than heads)'

4. After each significant combat, have people roll checks on the condition of their armour, shield, weapons, etc. This is too detailed for some (including me) but it *is* realistic...if your shield spends the day getting bashed, chances are it'll need some repair that evening.

Now, these don't solve everything...nothing can...but a small step is better than none...

Lanefan