realistic vs. cliche cultures
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kengar
First Post
Realism in FRPG
To me, "Realism" in gaming means more an internal consistency within the setting than whether monsters and magic exist.
Sometimes, designing a setting can be like playing chess against yourself. You have to look at each culture individually and determine a rational structure. Even cliched cultures can be realistic in this way.
For example, let's say you have two main races: elves and orcs. They hate each other because of a long bloody history of fighting for territory and control of the open plains where the elves try to grow food and the orcs hunt. This is why they have contact with one another at all.
The elves have lived in their graceful cities for hundreds of centuries. They have brilliant scholars, powerful magics and mighty warriors. So why haven't they gotten rid of those pesky orcs who are barely savages? Something must be stopping them. What is it? Maybe it's sheer numbers. The elves are few in number. They breed seldom because of their long lifespans and the orcs multiply like maggots. If the orcs hate elves so much and there are so many of them, why haven't they won? Perhaps they are disorganized (tribal bands) and they lack the powerful magic of the elves.
Thus a balance is struck and an impasse reached. The elves lack the bloodlust and the numbers to press an attack against the roving bands of orcs. The orcs are neither united nor do their shamans' spirit magic compare to the sorcery of the elven battle mages.
To me, "Realism" in gaming means more an internal consistency within the setting than whether monsters and magic exist.
Sometimes, designing a setting can be like playing chess against yourself. You have to look at each culture individually and determine a rational structure. Even cliched cultures can be realistic in this way.
For example, let's say you have two main races: elves and orcs. They hate each other because of a long bloody history of fighting for territory and control of the open plains where the elves try to grow food and the orcs hunt. This is why they have contact with one another at all.
The elves have lived in their graceful cities for hundreds of centuries. They have brilliant scholars, powerful magics and mighty warriors. So why haven't they gotten rid of those pesky orcs who are barely savages? Something must be stopping them. What is it? Maybe it's sheer numbers. The elves are few in number. They breed seldom because of their long lifespans and the orcs multiply like maggots. If the orcs hate elves so much and there are so many of them, why haven't they won? Perhaps they are disorganized (tribal bands) and they lack the powerful magic of the elves.
Thus a balance is struck and an impasse reached. The elves lack the bloodlust and the numbers to press an attack against the roving bands of orcs. The orcs are neither united nor do their shamans' spirit magic compare to the sorcery of the elven battle mages.
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Henry
Autoexreginated
Re: Re: Re: realistic vs. cliche cultures
You've just described the Forgotten Realms, and indeed, 90% of all fantasy worlds for use with RPG's.
As for cultures, the cultures of my homebrew are nothing like "generic" cultures. But for Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, if you need a "canned" setting that players can identify with quickly, you can't beat using stereotypical cultural models, because not all campaigns are in-depth immersive character studies. For one-shots and limited-session romps, it's better to have something that can easily work.
LostSoul said:
You've just described the Forgotten Realms, and indeed, 90% of all fantasy worlds for use with RPG's.
As for cultures, the cultures of my homebrew are nothing like "generic" cultures. But for Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, if you need a "canned" setting that players can identify with quickly, you can't beat using stereotypical cultural models, because not all campaigns are in-depth immersive character studies. For one-shots and limited-session romps, it's better to have something that can easily work.
kengar
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: realistic vs. cliche cultures
That's a good point. If things are too different from what the players expect, their characters won't "fit in" unless they really want to know how things are set up in your world. Often, though, players don't want to learn a whole complicated game world. They don't care why the fact that the third Duke of Kradile is acting as regent instead of the crown prince's uncle. Nor do they care the Verlila is actually a Theocracy instead of a Monarchy. They want to find the dungeon and kill something. As long as they can buy & sell stuff in town and get healed up, they couldn't care less about who's running the place.
As a DM, your job is to make things fun for you AND your players. It can break a DM's heart to painstakingly design a completely consistent game world with just the right power level and feel/tone just to have a party of min/maxers blast through the flavor and details like so much tissue paper looking for the next combat. Sometimes the best way to work it is to have a little something for everyone.
In the setting I am currently developing, there is a whole history and political/economic setup between 3-4 population centers. Inside town, there are NPCs with their own agendas, power struggles, economic and legal issues, etc. The players can choose to get involved or ignore these as they wish. Some of them may eventually come to have a real effect on the party if they don't pay attention, but again, it's their choice.
Outside of town is nearly raw wilderness. There are savage humanoid tribes, magical beasts, haunted ruins, lost cities, etc. All the good dungeon crawl stuff. The powergamers will have a great time killing monsters and looting ruins while the roleplayers will get a kick out the happenings in town. What the players have to do is give each other a chance to enjoy themselves. If the powergamers let the RP-ers have a few minutes to play out talking to the mayor in town, then once they group hits the road, there will be chances for combat and loot.
Henry said:
That's a good point. If things are too different from what the players expect, their characters won't "fit in" unless they really want to know how things are set up in your world. Often, though, players don't want to learn a whole complicated game world. They don't care why the fact that the third Duke of Kradile is acting as regent instead of the crown prince's uncle. Nor do they care the Verlila is actually a Theocracy instead of a Monarchy. They want to find the dungeon and kill something. As long as they can buy & sell stuff in town and get healed up, they couldn't care less about who's running the place.
As a DM, your job is to make things fun for you AND your players. It can break a DM's heart to painstakingly design a completely consistent game world with just the right power level and feel/tone just to have a party of min/maxers blast through the flavor and details like so much tissue paper looking for the next combat. Sometimes the best way to work it is to have a little something for everyone.
In the setting I am currently developing, there is a whole history and political/economic setup between 3-4 population centers. Inside town, there are NPCs with their own agendas, power struggles, economic and legal issues, etc. The players can choose to get involved or ignore these as they wish. Some of them may eventually come to have a real effect on the party if they don't pay attention, but again, it's their choice.
Outside of town is nearly raw wilderness. There are savage humanoid tribes, magical beasts, haunted ruins, lost cities, etc. All the good dungeon crawl stuff. The powergamers will have a great time killing monsters and looting ruins while the roleplayers will get a kick out the happenings in town. What the players have to do is give each other a chance to enjoy themselves. If the powergamers let the RP-ers have a few minutes to play out talking to the mayor in town, then once they group hits the road, there will be chances for combat and loot.
Aaron L
Hero
It pretty much depends on how much contact your players have with the culture. If all the PCs ever see of the viking culture is the warriors, then they will believe that they are all warriors. If they go to the viking lands, then they will see the rest of the society. That is why we have the sterotype of things like that. Only the vikings ever saw their whole culture, the rest of the world only ever saw the raiders.
Tiefling
First Post
kengar said:
Or, perhaps more importantly, why haven't they invented gunpowder, the printing press, physics, calculus, hot air balloons, steel conversion, economics, steam engines, gasoline, the cotton gin, railroads, electricity, cameras, nitroglycerine, gatling guns, radio, lightbulbs, phonographs, internal combustion engines, powered flight, automobiles, X-rays, relativity theory, plastics, turbojets, nuclear weapons, refrigeration, combine harvesters, cathode-ray tubes, computers, lasers, space flight, transistors, microwave ovens, and artificial hearts?
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Or, perhaps more importantly, why haven't they invented gunpowder, the printing press, physics, calculus, hot air balloons, economics, steam engines,electricity,gatling gunsine, lightbulbs, powered flight, lasers
Actually all these things were (suppossedly) created by various ancient - medieval socieites on Earth. the ancient Greeks had steam-engines, Egyptians used electricity (mainly for displays of 'divine power'), Medieval Japan had multifire guns (of a sort). The Arc of the Covenant may have been a nuclear power generator! As for Powered Flight its only a L3 spell
and Fireball makes a convincing Laser
relativity theory, nuclear weapons,artificial hearts
Well these are actually cultural phenomena as much as science/technology. Relativity theory was a flash of inspiration which obviously none of the Elves has yet got, Nuclear weapons are a direct result of Rutherfords splitting of the atom which relies on an Atom theory (which the elves may not in fact have developed)
Same with medicine Perhaps the elves still beleive Disease is caused by evil spirits and the heart is the seat of emotions.
gasoline, railroads, cameras, nitroglycer , radio, phonographs, internal combustion engines, automobiles, X-rays,
plastics, turbojets, refrigeration, combine harvesters, cathode-ray tubes, computers, space flight, transistors, microwave ovens,
Again culture and the underlying assumptions behind it will serve to limit what is possible. Plus if neccisity is the mother of invention then in a high magic society much invention wont be neccessary (why travel by car when you can teleport)
Actually all these things were (suppossedly) created by various ancient - medieval socieites on Earth. the ancient Greeks had steam-engines, Egyptians used electricity (mainly for displays of 'divine power'), Medieval Japan had multifire guns (of a sort). The Arc of the Covenant may have been a nuclear power generator! As for Powered Flight its only a L3 spell
and Fireball makes a convincing Laserrelativity theory, nuclear weapons,artificial hearts
Well these are actually cultural phenomena as much as science/technology. Relativity theory was a flash of inspiration which obviously none of the Elves has yet got, Nuclear weapons are a direct result of Rutherfords splitting of the atom which relies on an Atom theory (which the elves may not in fact have developed)
Same with medicine Perhaps the elves still beleive Disease is caused by evil spirits and the heart is the seat of emotions.
gasoline, railroads, cameras, nitroglycer , radio, phonographs, internal combustion engines, automobiles, X-rays,
plastics, turbojets, refrigeration, combine harvesters, cathode-ray tubes, computers, space flight, transistors, microwave ovens,
Again culture and the underlying assumptions behind it will serve to limit what is possible. Plus if neccisity is the mother of invention then in a high magic society much invention wont be neccessary (why travel by car when you can teleport)
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Tiefling said:
It is illuminating to wonder why most cultures on this world didn't invnet these things, and why the ones that did waited so long to do so. There are interesting insights into this problem (but not, I think, a complete answer) in Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (ISBN 0-09-930278-0).
"Guns Germs, and Steel" is a book that I think every intelligent person ought to read.
Regards,
Agback
Celebrim
Legend
"Perhaps the elves still beleive Disease is caused by evil spirits and the heart is the seat of emotions."
And perhaps, they are correct.
After all, this is a fantasy world.
Where on the periodic chart do you place Fire?
Although there are many things that the advanced magical cultures cannot do that we can do, there are many things that they can do that we cannot.
And perhaps, they are correct.
After all, this is a fantasy world.
Where on the periodic chart do you place Fire?
Although there are many things that the advanced magical cultures cannot do that we can do, there are many things that they can do that we cannot.
Tiefling
First Post
Agback said:
Yeah, I'm actually in the process of reading that now.
Tonguez said:
Although I find the idea that the Ark was a nuclear reactor pretty dubious, and Hero's little toy wasn't really a steam engine (I don't know about the others), this suggests moreso that the elves should have developed these things by now.
Tonguez said:
Sure, but most European cultures believed the same thing but got over it. Why not the elves?
I don't see how nukes and relativity theory are cultural phenomena (other than that technology partly defines a culture). And sure, relativity theory came to us on the shoulders of a super-genius, but after measuring the speed of light and realizing that it's a constant, relativity theory is bound to come within a few centuries at most. As to the requirement of atomic theory do develop nukes, I know, I just neglected to mention it. It's another thing that would be thought up sooner or later.
Tonguez said:
I'm still not sure what you mean by that. Could you rephrase it?
Tonguez said:
But even in a relatively high-magic society such as the FR, magic is still far too rare to be used by the general populace, and therefore wouldn't significantly inhibit technological development. And to paraphrase Jared Diamond, invention is the mother of necessity: most technology, at least until quite recently, is invented long before anyone starts to use (and need) it.
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