Really Dumb Hellish Rebuke Question

[RangerWickett]

Once the warlock PC in my group hellish rebuked, then dropped off a 10-ft. wall in order to hit his enemy for more damage. When the GM brought up, "It's supposed to be fueled by your anger," his response was, "Of course I'm f***in' angry. This idiot's attacking me, and making me do stupid s**t like jump off walls in order to make him stop.

For balance and decency sake, I'd just let a PC punch himself or cut himself on a weapon he has as a minor action, dealing 4 damage.

 

[CapnZapp]

Two possible solutions, both realizing that the real problem lies with Hellish Rebuke:
1) rewrite the power so it says "if an enemy deals damage to you" instead of the apparently-abusable "if you take damage". If you can manage to get a minion deal 4 points while you have temporary hp to spare, great. That's the intended best-scenario and not cheesy.
2) simply cap the damage the enemy takes to what you take. If you deal one point of damage to yourself, you're "wasting" the rebuke to deal a mere one point of damage to the enemy too...

Saying "you can't deal a single point of damage to yourself, there's no such action" is a much less desirable solution.

Remember, we're only discussing it to prevent cheese. And this particular cheese should be prevented in other ways, closer to the "root of the cheese".

I find that "I prick myself for one point of damage" to be very reasonable in general (god knows why you'd do it though, cheese excepted). Besides, the "there's no such action" response has other implications. It can only lead to a very inflexible gamish game, something I don't want, and something I certainly wouldn't allow a single sloppily written power to intrude upon my game.

 

[twilsemail]

It seems like there are circumstances where anger and pain come about from damage dealt by people that aren't "enemies." When the Wizard fries your butt, you tend to be angry and in pain (also a bit singed). Wouldn't those times also fuel the fires of the spell?

I don't think the idea behind this is wrong, I think the execution is lacking. Making the action a standard action, instead of a minor, seems like it would solve the problem to me. In that circumstance, it's just another 1d6+mod that hits automatically, with the cost of a handful of hit points (not one... that's silly.)

 

[jjf]

I'd let the warlock do it only once during a single dramatic battle, just because it is kind of cool and clever. I'd make him roll full damage against himself, though, and would come up with some other way to reward him for creativity (maybe increase the damage he deals in some way).

Next time he tried it, I'd still make him roll damage, then explain it doesn't work this time. The diabolical forces that inflict the curse are no longer satisfied with that sacrifice -- they want blood born of pain and chaos, not carefully placed paper cuts.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Attacking anything is almost always a standard action. Additionally "pulling your punches" is represented by the "target only passes out when reduced to 0" rule, not by voluntarily reducing the amount of damage one does.

So - if he manages to damage himself before the start of his next turn, he can feel free. If stabbing himself is the best thing he can think of to do with an action point, more power to him, and if he uses some other minor-action attack power to damage himself, again: who cares?

The only problem is that you're creating a minor action attack that causes 1 point of damage. If that's not there, this is not an advantageous tactic most of the time (unless you're fighting something with ludicrous defenses and you're using at-wills on it and never taking damage from it).

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, the only problem with that, Saeviomagy, is that pricking your skin is a clearly reasonable action, and making it less than a standard action is reasonable too...

Instead of enforcing players to only take the limited actions permitted by the combat framework (which would go against ideas such as skill challenges in combat, doing combat stunts and generally escaping the stifling close-mindedness any "balanced" combat system tends to set you in)...

...why not simply acknowledge the problem lies with the power itself?

 

[twilsemail]

I'd say mostly because the problem does not lie within the power itself. Something as minor as pricking your finger doesn't even rate a HP in my book. The stuff the dark forces are looking for is a dagger plunged in your gut. If you attack yourself, dealing actual damage, then the power should apply. This all breaks down to DM fiat. There are some DMs out there who think it's reasonable and those who don't. It's not even reasonable to argue RAI vs. RAW in this instance as I can certainly see it within the flavor of the class to gouge your flesh with a dagger in order to wound your enemies.

I agree with Saeviomagy, the problem here isn't with doing damage by wounding yourself, it's with doing it as a minor action and then using the power again (or any other). I can't think of another instance where you can use an at-will as a minor action and deal that ammount of damage automatically. A standard action isn't as bad because at least your getting hurt in the process and don't have another attack coming to you.

 

[gtoasnt3]

My wife is diabetic. She is quite used to "pricking" her finger to test. I think this discussion is what makes this game great. Some of your games will allow this creative event to happen in your games, and some will moderate how/when it can happen. In my game, I would judge thusly: pricking your finger for 1 point of dmg to become both pained and angered isn't going to "cut" it (no pun intended). If your character is that masochistic and want's to REALLY hurt himself/herself, it's going to require a STD action along with basic damage to bring on the hellish fires! LOL

I'd also warn them that the monsters typically have a bit more HP's than the characters. Do you really want to reduce your HP's by about the same amount that you'll cause to the monster by this act? It's nice when you are actually hit by the creature to deal some more damage, but PC HP's are pretty important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[twilsemail]

My comment on the above example, your wife pricking her finger isn't dealing HP damage. I can't imagine that she's frail enough that if you pricked her fingers 30 times she'd fall over dead or dying. I've dated a diabetic and know that the process can be a pain, but I don't think that measuring your sugar can be deadly... well, not unless you're really trying.

I think there's a difference in the whole system between receiving damage and having blood drawn. There's been more than one occasion where the ranger or warlock was narrowly missed and the situation was described as a grazing blow. There've also been times where a hit that only dealt miniscule ammounts of damage was described in the same way.

Page 293 of the PHB tells us that hit points are more than just damage on a sheet. They're all of the factors in a fight that keeps someone standing. A Warlock whittling down their own clock for the sake of damage.

Having thought about this more, I'd probably rules that the Hit points granted by a warlock's powers wouldn't protect him from this action. Those hitpoints are the protection of dark forces granted to the warlock. Why would they hinder his sacrifice to them?

Parallel question, would a Warlock taking damage from Sacrifice to Caiphon deal out damage to those under the effects of this power?

Edited for poor wording.

 

[Larrin]

when it comes down to it, I have to agree that just cutting yourself isn't 1 dmg, its a 0 dmg fluff effect, thus. In order to do hitpoint damage it has to be a serious cut that 'could' knock you unconsious if you were already worn down. Basically, the warlock needs to stab themselves convincingly, and at that point its a die roll to see how much damage they take.

I have no problem with a warlock damaging themselves to trigger the effect, but they can't minimize the damage. If you want to trigger the effect yourself, you've got to be committed to the cause. 1d4+str+enhancements, but i'll let you hit without rolling...