Really, how important is the system/edition?

[Raven Crowking]

Look at it this way:

* If system didn't matter, 1-1-1 and 1-2-1 would be just as good as each other. No one would ever claim that either introduces more problems at the table. It wouldn't matter.

* If system didn't matter, then a system that allowed cohorts/animal companions would be just as easy to prep for as one that did not; there would be no reason to make changes to these abilities in new editions.

* If system didn't matter, then there would be no reason to make new editions. Well, except to con the rubes.

But, none of these things are accurate. Almost everyone prefers 1-1-1 or 1-2-1 or some other varient -- it matters. Some folks do find that cohorts/animal companions skew PC power levels and make prep difficult -- it matters. Companies put out new editions at least partly because they believe the new edition is an improvement -- it matters.

We want to believe that system doesn't matter for a plethora of reasons -- some defensive, some to feel united, some to feel better about geek system rage.

Our actions demonstrate otherwise.

System matters.


RC

 

[Ariosto]

If system didn't matter, 1-1-1 and 1-2-1 would be just as good as each other.

What are those?

A lot of spending may indicate a lot of importance placed on "system" -- but less spending does not necessarily mean less importance. Someone who owns just 3 books, or 10, can have as strong a preference for 1e as someone has for 3e who has purchased 30 or 100 books. This because neither demand nor supply is necessarily infinite, or even on a constant scale. More spending does not necessarily add value -- and indeed "complete in one inexpensive volume" may be a value in itself.

The conflation of money with real value often confuses things.

I'll buy you a diamond ring my friend if it makes you feel alright
I'll get you anything my friend if it makes you feel alright
'Cause I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love

 

[Raven Crowking]

A lot of spending may indicate a lot of importance placed on "system" -- but less spending does not necessarily mean less importance. Someone who owns just 3 books, or 10, can have as strong a preference for 1e as someone has for 3e who has purchased 30 or 100 books. This because neither demand nor supply is necessarily infinite, or even on a constant scale. More spending does not necessarily add value -- and indeed "complete in one inexpensive volume" may be a value in itself

I would say that, unless that person has experienced other systems, his or her preference for system is, in fact, not because "system matters" but due to other factors (ex. "Identity Matters").

If you want to see good examples of "Identity Matters", look at the folks who championed 3e, and who claimed that the faults of that system were all user error, but then jumped on the 4e bandwagon by decrying the same faults they previously claimed didn't exist. In this case, it is clearly identifying oneself with the system that matters, rather than the system itself.

Most of us are probably guilty of this to some degree.....or there would be no Edition Wars.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

What are those?

1-1-1 and 1-2-1 are systems for counting movement on a grid, for games which use the same. Not counting movement on a grid is probably the most commonly prefered "varient"!


RC

 

[maddman75]

@maddman75 - thanks for the recommendations. I've heard of all those systems, but haven't read them. I recall being pretty intrigued by someone describing using DitV for a Jedi-centric Stars Wars campaign... maybe on RPG.net?

Yes, I've read that before too. It would work rather well I think. The game is built around raising stakes, where you roll d6s for argument, d8 for physical interation, d10 for fighting, and d12 for pulling out the guns. The PCs travel from town to town upholding the Faith. The Faith becomes weakened when (IIRC) Pride leads to Injustice, Injustice leads to Sin, Sin leads to False Doctrines, False Doctrines lead to Hatred and Murder.

This is pretty easy to remap so that the PCs are Jedi in the Old Republic. They protect the citizens of the Republic by promoting the Light Side. They roll d6 for arguments, d8 for Using the Force, d10 for Lightsabers, and d12 for The Dark Side. They must watch out for the Sith, because many times people become fearful, and Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hatred, and Hatred leads to the Dark Side.

First off, you misunderstand what is meant by "importance of system". If system is important to you, it makes sense that you try multiple systems in order to find the "best" one to your needs. If system is unimportant to you, there is no real incentive to try new systems.

I largely agree with what you're saying, except as a 'system matters I have a ton of games' guy, I'm not looking for the One True System. I like different stuff. Sometimes I want horror. Other times over the top action. Still others I want gritty survival. This is why I was never big into the 'everything d20' craze. I don't want a single system mashed into different forms. I want a system designed from the ground up to give me the kind of play I'm looking for.

 

[keterys]

I find system as just another in a series of factors. Like there's a group of gamers I wish I could play with more often, but I'm not because they're playing systems I don't enjoy anymore _and_ it's inconvenient time and commute. If it were just one or the other, I'd maybe try to make it work.

 

[Hussar]

RC - I think we actually agree for once. I do think that system matters, of course.

However, I also think that group matters much more.

While there are loads of system questions, there are also a fair number of threads dedicated to systemless questions (which I personally find much more interesting - things like How important is building a setting ((Poke)) ) all over the forums.

And, there are also a fair number of threads dedicated to the sort of "Is my DM/Player a Jerk"? sort of questions as well, which points to the importance of group.

I agree that system is important. I just don't think it's more important than group. Group will have a much larger effect on the enjoyment of the game than system, IMHO.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I largely agree with what you're saying, except as a 'system matters I have a ton of games' guy, I'm not looking for the One True System. I like different stuff.

Sure. Switching systems can be because (1) you have one set of needs, and you are looking for the best system to fill that set, or (2) you have several sets of needs, and are searching for systems to fill those needs as they arise. If you play a lot of different types of games, the "best game" shifts based upon what you want.

RC - I think we actually agree for once. I do think that system matters, of course.

However, I also think that group matters much more.

I wouldn't disagree with this.

I love to go hiking; there are people I would not want to go hiking with. It doesn't matter how much you love something, if the only way you can do it is to hang out with people you don't like. Likewise, you can tolerate a lot of stuff you don't like for your friends.

But "system matters"/"group matters" isn't a dichotomy. They can both matter quite a bit, without one in any way detracting from the importance of the other.


RC

 

[Hussar]

They're not a dichotomy (sorry, my bad) and I would say that it's not a zero-sum game either. Just because one is more important (IMO) than another is not saying that the more important one is, the less the other is.

So, yeah, I think we agree.

Nice when that happens.

 

[Lanefan]

Or, looking at another group - those that play OOP editions. How much money has someone who is playing 1e spending per year on D&D?

In my own case, far too bloody much.

My credit card is still shivering after what I did to it at this year's GenCon, mostly from picking up OOP 1e stuff (TSR and 3rd-party).

Spread over the two or three decades of gaming, that gamer is spending very, very little on his hobby.

Depends on your definition of "very, very little", I suppose.

I'd hazard a guess that, adjusted for inflation, I'm probably spending more per year on the game now than at any other time, and that's playing 1e all the way. I played some 3e as well, but didn't spend much on it - the 3 core books was pretty much it - the rest of the 3e stuff I bought was to support my 1e game. Same goes for the various bits of 4e I've picked up since it came out.

Lanefan