D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you play in a system that has 20 pages of differences between that and the main game then you are indeed not playing dungeons and dragons as written.

So, someone playing with Complete Adventurer is not playing real D&D?

Your points are getting even more egregious as we go on. Have some more rope.

 

[billd91]

Where's this 20 pages of new rules that the RPGA uses? I'm just curious if it's more "20 pages of rule clarifications" or "20 pages of rewriting the rules". I haven't followed RPGA stuff closely, but I recall seeing more rule clarifications and list of what's allowed and not than "we do grapple checks differently" kinds of rewriting of rules. To me that is a bigger distinction than raw number of pages.

Also, since you want to draw the line between them "not playing D&D" with 20 pages, and 1 page of house rules being ok - what's the cut off? If I have a 10 page document, is that still D&D? 8 pages? If I allow core rules only and no Complete X or other expansions, what then? Or for kicks, we play all expansions and no core class/races, is that D&D? If I still play 3.0 or 2nd edition or older, which has a heck of a lot more than 20 pages of changes, am I still playing D&D?

Or for that matter, what if the font size and margins are adjusted so that the content fits into less than 20 pages? Can I shrink the font down to 6 points, shrink the margin to a quarter inch, print double-sided and be playing D&D again?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I've found that a lot of RPGA players tend to be roll players, instead of roleplayers. Not that it's a bad thing, since the game needs to be critically accessed at first by its crunch, and then its fluff.

 

[smerwin29]

Where's this 20 pages of new rules that the RPGA uses?

There is no such thing. Each campaign has a document that discusses things like how to create a character, how to track experience points, etc. It also includes rules on things that, in a home campaign, the DM would have to make rules about anyway. In RPGA campaigns, there needs to be document so players can read them, whereas in a home campaign, the DM can just make those rulings verbally. If those rulings were put on paper, they would most likely be just as long as the guidelines for the RPGA campaigns.

The irony of this is that other sources often complain about the RPGA because it sticks to D&D rules TOO CLOSELY without the freedom to alter the rules when it might seem more reasonable to do so. So the RPGA shouldn't be involved in the playtest because it is not "real D&D" to some, while to others it follows the core rules too closely. Go figure.

The main problem with the arguments against the RPGA, and the reason some people are feeling the need to defend the RPGA, is most of the points against the RPGA are completely false and the arguments invalid. At this point, it is actually almost amusing. Because every point that people try to make about the RPGA are just not true because the RPGA is made up of a huge spectrum of players--it's akin to stereotyping based on race or religion. The RPGA, and the RPGA players, are not any one thing, and even trying to pinpoint tendencies is risky.

I've played home games and RPGA games for the last 20+ years. Most recently, I've seen more intensive roleplaying in the RPGA, and more hack n'slash in the home campaigns. I cannot keep a home campaign intact for more than a few months, but my local RPGA group has been playing together since 2001. The number of social misfits I've met when playing home campaigns vastly outnumbers those I have met through the RPGA--which is not to say there aren't any in the RPGA, but just happens to be my experience.

I am not upset that certain people in this thread feel the need to question the legitimacy of the RPGA's involvement in the playtesting of 4.0. But when you question a group, you question by default the members of that group. It is to that people are responding. All of the reasons the RPGA should not be involved in the playtest that I have seen in this thread have been refuted quite thoroughly. The reasons the RPGA should be involved have been stated quite clearly and rationally and have not been refuted.

 

[kenmarable]

Or for that matter, what if the font size and margins are adjusted so that the content fits into less than 20 pages? Can I shrink the font down to 6 points, shrink the margin to a quarter inch, print double-sided and be playing D&D again?

If you can get it down to 5 or less pages, then yes, it's D&D. If you want to include up to 2 images, then you are allowed a 6th page.

Mind you, this is just good ol' American 8 1/2" by 11" paper, none of that weird European A4 paper size nonsense. True D&D is 8 1/2" by 11", 5 pages or less. Any more than that and Monte Cook will kick in your door and take away your dice.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

If you play in a system that has 20 pages of differences between that and the main game then you are indeed not playing dungeons and dragons as written.

How many pages of custom "rules" do RPGA playtesters use when playtesting the new system?

ANSWER: None.
​

So tell us how that's relevant? It's practically a non sequitur.

 

[Nifft]

If you can get it down to 5 or less pages, then yes, it's D&D.

D&D: Font Size Matters.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Fathead]

Any more than that and Monte Cook will kick in your door and take away your dice.

True story! That happened to a friend of mine, Tewligan. What's worse is that Monte kicked in his door, took away his dice, AND shoved his miniature up his left nostril.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

True story! That happened to a friend of mine, Tewligan. What's worse is that Monte kicked in his door, took away his dice, AND shoved his miniature up his left nostril.

... and then called him a Gish, too, which is where Tewligan's list started.

 

[Gwathlas]

Some people don't feel it's naturally dungeons and dragons. I've had a ton of horror stories about the RPGA which caused me to stop playing in events all together a few years ago.

RPGA's aren't modules. They are scored games. There is no risky side quests or PC initiated stories that create the plot. Few DMs I know run a long module from beginning to end without instituting many of their own enhancements, stories and multiplots. You don't get that with RPGA events. You get a set story, a random DM (I've had good ones and a majority of crappy ones) and if you're at a convention count on one snot nosed kid. The PCs have no relevance to the plot, as they are designed to be that way so that 100s of groups can run it. It's what you play when you can't get in a real group and want a fix. It's the crack of dungeons and dragons. So little relevance the PCs have to the plot is the writer of the module will tell you what "really" happened in that module sometime later to keep a coherent story together.

How many d and d games have you been in where what you did not matter. The RPGA isn't Dungeons and dragons, its a light version in order to get a bunch of people to pretend they are in the same world. A mumbomagumbo of tabletop and mmorpg. So why test out your new system beginning with tests that don't resemble the actual use of the product. It would be like GE testing out toasters by seeing how fast they can warm up a house.

So why in the world is it the first testing grounds for the new edition?

I agree with you. Testing by everyday DM's would be more realistic but I don't get the impresion the wotc gang care about any opinions or feedback. They just keep telling us how they are moving ahead and everything is so exciting. Exciting a word I'm beginning to hate as much as mooks and sith lords....