D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[tzor]

I certanly don't want to insult anyone especially the RPGA, but I'm afraid it's not the right environment. It might have been, or perhaps it used to be, but it's not anymore. I remember many years ago the RPGA trying to actively recruit various local gaming groups for just such a purpose, effective playtesting of ideas. That part of the RPGA is no more.

It's also not the environment to test new systems. Their environment assumes that you know how to play the game, where there will probably be a lot of 4E that is going to be new to even the most experienced player. Massive demos might help, but not the RPGA style of gaming.

Mind you that's what the RPGA should be capable of, getting a number of core testers out there to experment with various aspects of the game and give reports that can be tabulated.

On the other hand, I think that 4E is being developed to be more of a con game mind set anway, so perhaps RPGA is the best way to test the edition.

 

[Thunderfoot]

RPGA member and player for years....
Why it IS a good idea:
The newest edition is being streamlined for more of a rules light feel. Less mechanics and more flavor, definitely a Con sort of feel. RPGA members must adhere to a standard rules set, no house rules at official games, no cheating (in either direction), good sportsmanship and a general organized sense about the games. Often it is stated that roleplaying is thrown to the curb at RPGA games, not true, roleplaying is a scoreable stat on the card. It is a little lighter than a typical game, yes, but it is there. However, I think the big thing being missed here is that all of these folks are roleplayers. We have our own games outside of the framework of the organization. I have been playing for nearly 30 years now, I have been a member of the RPGA on and off for about 20 years. I didn't stop playing when I wasn't a member and I have played outside of sanctioned events on a number of occasions, even with *gasp* ENworlders. We want a system that works just like anyone else, we aren't yes men to to WotC (trust me on this one) and if there is something missing, people will respond in kind. Also, when it comes time to turn in the data, it will be done on-time and in the proper format.

Why it IS NOT a good idea:
The testing will take the form of a Con style game, while this is a great way to test battle mechanics, it is a lousy way to test roleplay mechanics. While roleplay is stressed as essential in a timed game, it is often the first casualty as the clock gets closer to 'midnight' as it were. Quirks in the system can get overlooked if it strays too far from the beaten path. Grapple, Attacks, Magic, I feel safe in saying will get a thorough going over, Bluffing, Negotiating, Lying, Cheating and the like will not be addressed nearly so thoroughly. When it comes time to turn in data, if it isn't covered in the questionnaire, it has a good possibility of being missed.

Summary: Like all organizations, it isn't perfect. I find it amazing that a few experiences have damned the entire organization to an otherwise undeserved reputation. But then again, the most obvious contact is at conventions, where lack of sleep, time and often information is a pretty good bet. Its kind of amazing that some of the fellow RPGAers I know as friendly and sweet are mean and cruel after working for three days at a Con with no little food, no sleep and little respect thrown their way. Hmmm, go figure. At the same time, trolling the D&DI for other playtesters is a smart idea. It approaches the same problem from the opposite side, the cerebral instead of the mechanical. I have said from the start that the time involved is probably way too short, but the manner in which WotC is approaching the playtesting seems spot on.

 

[AffableVagrant]

Often, software developers hire hackers to try to break down their system, find the problems and expose them. What WoC needs are some hardcore power-gamers to squeeze every possible +1 out of that game and see what comes up. I'm talking about the types of guys who wear sweatpants 7 days a week, live in a basement, and have a part-time job at a video store. The kind of guy who interrupts the DM every 10 minutes to correct him/her by beginning the sentence: "Well, actually..."

If you ever read "Knights of the Dinner Table", I'm basically talking about Brian.

I don't see why being in the RPGA makes anyone more or less qualified at that. Maybe they could have accepted submissions for "The Most Ridiculously Min/Maxed Character Ever" and see who pokes their head out?

Of course, I have some bias here, as I am the DM at my table, and power-gaming is of major concern to me.

 

[DonTadow]

Wow, all those games of wrongfun I've had... I feel cheated... I'm burning my RPGA card right now. Thanks DonTadow, now I've seen the light.

No where did I say it is not fun. What I said was it is not dungeons and dragons as written in any of the books, thus it the RPGA has its own set of rules. I'm not discounting that they are organized. But say that a military arms company has a new assault rifle they need testing. Do they send it to the Michigan Hunters Society, a well organized group of state hunters or do they send it to the military first.

Point being is that if the RPGA is not D and D as designed, how can they be counted on to test rules as designed.

 

[Treebore]

I would guess they aren't going to have the RPGA do all the playtesting. Even though I don't like th RPGA environment (maxes out my Rules Lawyer Meter in a heartbeat or less), they are an excellent resource for testing out 4E. BtB play is important, and they are hard core BtB, and many of them are very good at spotting loop holes and powerful builds.

Still, I am betting WOTC will recruit non RPGA groups as well.

Ideally they would find a bunch of newbies, to make sure how they write the rules can actually be understood. If 4E has badly written rules like AoO was in 3.0 I'm going to quit 4E right away. I'm not going through rules arguments like that again.

 

[Cadfan]

The organization of the RPGA alone makes using them obligatory.

Look, they could try to get your "real" D&D feel by using random gaming groups as their primary playtesters. And that might have its charms. But the RPGA can guarantee X number of players playing Y sessions over Z weeks, and that's darned important.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

No where did I say it is not fun. What I said was it is not dungeons and dragons as written in any of the books, thus it the RPGA has its own set of rules. I'm not discounting that they are organized. But say that a military arms company has a new assault rifle they need testing. Do they send it to the Michigan Hunters Society, a well organized group of state hunters or do they send it to the military first.

Point being is that if the RPGA is not D and D as designed, how can they be counted on to test rules as designed.

How, good sir, is it not Dungeons and Dragons? Golly, if you read the Campaign Setting documents you'll find that it utilizes the 3.5 edition of D&D to play. Play, btw, means that you assemble a group of 4-6 players, 1 DM, and they take part in an adventure (which consists of problem solving, role playing, and combat...just like the 'real' D&D!)

Just because you don't think it's deep enough, intimate enough..or whatever does not disqualify it from being D&D.

 

[gothmaugCC]

No where did I say it is not fun. What I said was it is not dungeons and dragons as written in any of the books, thus it the RPGA has its own set of rules. I'm not discounting that they are organized. But say that a military arms company has a new assault rifle they need testing. Do they send it to the Michigan Hunters Society, a well organized group of state hunters or do they send it to the military first.

Point being is that if the RPGA is not D and D as designed, how can they be counted on to test rules as designed.

What in zandru's nine hells are you talking about?

The RPGA style play is ALL about the rules. In your head you may envision something grander, but everyone in the rpga plays by the rules printed in black and white in those core sourcebooks you hold so dear. Sh*t, i guarentee any average RPGA player could dance circles around you when it comes to understanding and utilizing the rules AS PRINTED. And you know what? Most of those same guys and gals are fantastic roleplayers as well. Sure it gets obscured a bit at the big conventions, but try a home play RPGA event or one held at your local gaming store. Its DnD whether you believe it so, or not.

In another note,
Frankly i'm amazed at the ammount of negativity shown towards the RPGA on these boards. As a major proponent of RPGA sanctioned play AND more home games than I have time for, I was flabberghasted byt he number of uninformed posts on what the RPGA actually does. I mean were all gamers, right? We use the same books right?? We play the same game, right? So why the hostility toward the organized players?

Finally,
Of course WOTC is going to choose a large number of RPGA players for playtesting. HELLO!! The RPGA essentially provides players with credentials. All WoTC has to do is check thier database to find out that Joe Somebody has played 350 DnD games over the last year. THAT is confirmable data. Sure they can target home gamers, and I'm sure they are, but how can they choose between them? Its not like anyone has references, so they would have to take you at your word about your play experience. A business is not going to do that, they want proven credentials. The RPGA provides a controlled system for playtesting where they can at least pick people that they KNOW have played lots and lots of DND.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I would guess they aren't going to have the RPGA do all the playtesting. Even though I don't like th RPGA environment (maxes out my Rules Lawyer Meter in a heartbeat or less), they are an excellent resource for testing out 4E. BtB play is important, and they are hard core BtB, and many of them are very good at spotting loop holes and powerful builds.

Still, I am betting WOTC will recruit non RPGA groups as well.

Ideally they would find a bunch of newbies, to make sure how they write the rules can actually be understood. If 4E has badly written rules like AoO was in 3.0 I'm going to quit 4E right away. I'm not going through rules arguments like that again.

Actually, emails were supposed to have gone out yesterday to WotC forum-members (i.e. D&DI members) for the purpose of recruiting playtesters from outside the RPGA (obviously, a number of RPGA members are also D&DI members).

So, there will be a variety of playtesting. We just don't know what the quantity or quality of the testing will be.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

You go gothmaug!

Yeah...what goth said...and stuff...