D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[TheSeer]

I am a current RPGA member. It's not all I play, but one of our DMs likes it so for his campaign (of which we have 3) we are using the RPGA rules. For the most part, every RPGA member I have met or spoken to would make a great playtester. I just have one concern.

A large part of the RPGA is focused on restriction. Restricting certain classes, feats, spells, etc. because it is thought using those would provide an unbalancing effect on campaigns (so I was told if there is another reason, please don't flame, explain So that the majority of RPGA members seem to have the mindset that less is more, rapid levelling is unknown of as xp is doled out in precise chunks and even level advancement is capped *below* what is stated in the PHB.

This does not bode well for rules that seem to be about opening restrictions, rapid advancement and levelling up to what was formally consider to be almost double what the maximum they mandated was. i worry that all of these rules would be given short shrift as being excesive where someone not in RPGA would consider them as being just right. I don't *know* that RPGA members would have this mindset, but as I said, due to the rules they apply, it does point to there being some kind of conflict, no?

 

[D'karr]

[snip]
So yes, overall the RPGA members are very good people, however, there are enough of the not so good to turn people off to the RPGA.

I've been DMing D&D for over 30 years. I've been playing 3.X since it came out in 2000 and I've been running games for the RPGA for a little over 4 years and I still run games for my home group and only a few of them are RPGA members.

I've run a couple of hundred games (over 300) for the RPGA at home events, local gamedays, and conventions, including GenGon.

In that amount of time I've only run into ONE group that totally sucked and made me want to pull my hair out. If I limited my experience with the RPGA to that group then I'd say that the RPGA was a turn off. However, that is a very limited minority out of thousands of players that I've had at my table.

Anecdotal evidence usually works like that. We see what we decide to focus on. Unfortunately on these boards a lot of anecdotal evidence is used as proof. As if that limited experience was all there was and all there will ever be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there are no bad players in the RPGA. I'm sure that from what I read on these boards regularly there are a lot of bad players in home groups too. In any case one thing does not relate to the other. The RPGA has a good means of providing support for playtesting and do it in an efficient manner. There is going to be additional playtesting outside of the RPGA, and that is good too.

To cry to the winds that the "RPGA is not Dungeons and Dragons", is disingenuous at best. Then to use that opinion as proof positive fact that the RPGA is not a good vehicle for playtesting is ludicrous.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

I disagree. It lends itself well to discovering flaws that come up in RPGA style games. It's not as good at discovering flaws in the average home game. I think 3e can attest to that. From what I recall, 3e was tested in the same way. Many rules work fine within the structure of encounter based play, but break down (sometimes severely) in story based play where encounters don't happen when and how they are expected to.

That said, not all the testers are going to be from the RPGA. There's also ones selected from DI, so I'm not too worried. They're covering both games in their tests.

For working out mechanical issues, the RPGA is a good place to start. There are a number of players who are GREAT at finding exploits and I want them looking at this system. You are correct that more casual groups should playtest as well.

 

[AffableVagrant]

What's BtB?

 

[blargney the second]

What I said was it is not dungeons and dragons as written in any of the books

Man, what?

That's the equivalent of me saying you're not human because you're not exactly like me.
-blarg

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Who said the 4e playtests being done by RPGA members are being done precisely the way RPGA convention play is run, i.e. a 4-hour time slot? Seriously.

So why test out your new system beginning with tests that don't resemble the actual use of the product.

How much do we know? Nothing. Do you know why? The first rule of 4e playtest is not to talk about 4e playtest. People organizing and doing the playtests are forbidden from telling us how the playtests work. Do you know more than the rest of us on how playtests are being run Don?

All we know is that a very small percentage of RPGA members were chosen. We also don't know what methodology they were selected by.

Plus, just because some gamers join the RPGA and play RPGA-provided games does not mean that those people have no idea how to play in a home campaign.

 

[DonTadow]

Hey, Don - maybe you should check out the moderator warning in Post 4 before you continue to be offensive?

No one's being offensive, I'm stating a fact. The RPGA has a supplemental guide, about 20 pages long, of rules changes that alter the core d and d rules. Thus it is not dungeons and dragons as written. Major changes include item handouts, xp, certain roleplaying type abilities and feats and restricted classes and skills.

The environment is not the dungeons and dragons environment described in the DMG. Sure there's a dungeon master, players and an adventure, but by using that logic Gurps, True 20, Shadowrun, and Serenity are all Dungeons and Dragons as well. RPGA events are what they are events. THe campaigns described in the dMG are not there. Whereas the 3.5 books stress player interaction and development, that is impossible in an RPGA environment (just which group's story would be the main one).

I have been to many a rpga events and can't say I've ever had one that felt like a regular campaign. It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins. Because they don't provide the same elements as a traditional game.

A better testing group would have been the writers and major contributors to 3.5 .

 

[Kunimatyu]

I'd start with the RPGA if I was Lead Playtesting Coordinator at WotC.

Give them a few months, and they will find loopholes and exploits in the rules.

While I don't play in RPGA games anymore, they were incredibly instructive when I first started playing D&D. I learned about a huge array of character options(esp. the hideously broken ones), monster abilities, and I got to see a lot of DMs running games. After playing RPGA for a year, when I started my home game, things went much more smoothly than they would have if I had not participated.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

No one's being offensive, I'm stating a fact. The RPGA has a supplemental guide, about 20 pages long, of rules changes that alter the core d and d rules. Thus it is not dungeons and dragons as written. Major changes include item handouts, xp, certain roleplaying type abilities and feats and restricted classes and skills.

The environment is not the dungeons and dragons environment described in the DMG. Sure there's a dungeon master, players and an adventure, but by using that logic Gurps, True 20, Shadowrun, and Serenity are all Dungeons and Dragons as well. RPGA events are what they are events. THe campaigns described in the dMG are not there. Whereas the 3.5 books stress player interaction and development, that is impossible in an RPGA environment (just which group's story would be the main one).

I have been to many a rpga events and can't say I've ever had one that felt like a regular campaign. It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins. Because they don't provide the same elements as a traditional game.

A better testing group would have been the writers and major contributors to 3.5 .

So, what you're saying Don is that limiting PrC's, feats, classes and skills is one of the things keeping RPGA play from being D&D? Gosh, looks like my home games aren't D&D since I restrict what my players can use. Darn it! Looks like I was doing it all wrong.

Also, the Living Greyhawk Campaign standards DO NOT alter the fundamental core of D&D. For the record, PC development and interaction occurs aplenty in the RPGA.

I seriously have no idea where you get this stuff from.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I have been to many a rpga events and can't say I've ever had one that felt like a regular campaign. It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins. Because they don't provide the same elements as a traditional game.

Huh. This reasoning sounds like an unbreakable paradox. Because a playtest is never able to be equal to a campaign, just like convention gaming is never able to be a campaign. Therefore playtesting is the wrong way to playtest a game?

But Don, you are ignoring the fact that most RPGA game play today is done at home, not at conventions.

Also, Don, are one-shot games using the core books also not D&D because they aren't campaigns?