D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[Dirt]

As to why the RPGA was chosen, it probably just has to do with having some gamer statistics to work with (which is better than a random selection). I would not be surprised that they also extended invitations to groups in the finals of the D&D Open (which wouldn't be stretch since Mike Mearls is a designer, and Wavester, who if I recall correctly is a senior GM for the Open, seems to have some inside info). They're guaranteed to test the game mechanics well. (now, if they'd extend the same to the DCC tournament groups, I'd be set ).

I rarely play any RPGA events because of my experiences (some poor adventures, REALLY bad GMs, and some experiences so bad that they're comical)...but it's hard for me to knock the whole organization for it, or suggest that they wouldn't be right for playtesting 4E. Much of 3E was playtested by RPGA clubs.

Is the RPGA style different enough to suggest that it isn't really D&D? I don't think so.

Take a look again at the D&D Open. 4 combats each round, fit into a 5 hour time slot. Fewer combats, but they are more complicated and deadly. Boy...that sounds A LOT like the concept for combats in 4E, doesn't it? Probably with good reason. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that the ideas for 4E grew out of RPGA experiences...which may be why some people have ascribed a "convention" feeling to 4E.

Again...this is just speculation on my part, since I really have no inside information into the design...

 

[DonTadow]

So, what you're saying Don is that limiting PrC's, feats, classes and skills is one of the things keeping RPGA play from being D&D? Gosh, looks like my home games aren't D&D since I restrict what my players can use. Darn it! Looks like I was doing it all wrong.

Also, the Living Greyhawk Campaign standards DO NOT alter the fundamental core of D&D. For the record, PC development and interaction occurs aplenty in the RPGA.

I seriously have no idea where you get this stuff from.

And how did you leave your mark on that adventure when in 5 minutes after you complete an adventure, the DM will run it again as if the events you just did did not even occur? When you runn the next intallment of that series, whatever you did in the first (unless you followed the book to the tee) did not happen.

You limit stuff (and others to) in their campaign because you can. RPGA rules have to in order to run the games in the environment they do, its a necessity. The fact that the Living Greyhawk exists is proof that it does change the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. I am not going to get into what rules are necessary and which aren't. This is a new set of books, all the rules are necessary until proven otherwise.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The fact that the Living Greyhawk exists is proof that it does change the rules of Dungeons and Dragons.

Because no one ever invokes Rule 0, only the RPGA?

 

[kenobi65]

It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins.

::boggles::

Yes, I'm sure that *some* RPGA events don't sell out at GenCon and Origins. Living Greyhawk consistently sells out most of its slots...the "specials" at GenCon sold out within hours of event ordering going live.

I've played in the RPGA for 6 years, playing literally hundreds of games across a half-dozen campaigns. Yes, I've run into a few bad players, no denying that. I'd say that 90+% of the players I've played with were good-to-great players. I'd challenge anyone who's recruited new players "cold" (i.e., someone you didn't know, off of a bulletin board ad or whatever) into your home campaigns to report a better ratio.

And, most RPGAers I know *also* play in home campaigns. Are there some players whose D&D experience is *solely* RPGA play? Sure, a few; I believe that they're in the minority.

You're tarring us all with the brush that should be reserved for a few. And, even if the 4E playtesting was solely limited to "home groups", I can guarantee you that you'd be getting groups of lousy gamers in there, as well. Yes, there are some crappy players in the RPGA. There's some crappy players in home groups, too, so let's throw those babies out with the bathwater, too.

 

[Brian Gibbons]

A large part of the RPGA is focused on restriction. Restricting certain classes, feats, spells, etc. because it is thought using those would provide an unbalancing effect on campaigns

Er, so you believe that it's a bad idea to have people with an established philosophy of breaking down rules for balance issues, actually send in comments about potential balance issues? I'm a little perplexed.

I mean, if your fun includes allows for potentially unbalancing rule aspects, either on the assumption that balance doesn't matter or that a good GM can compensate, that's fine. That's your fun.

Me, I'm quite happy with the idea of rules that don't include unbalance, for the large number of GMs that either can't adequately deal with such systems or don't want to.

If it's want you want in your home game, it's quite easier to add something unbalancing as a house rule than it is to strip it out of the system. Feel free to add 3e polymorph or haste into your 4e game; it doesn't affect my fun.

Personally, I've never understood why WOTC doesn't pay more attention to the RPGA. There are spells that have been banned for use in Living campaigns for over a decade, that they're just getting around to fixing now.

It lends itself well to discovering flaws that come up in RPGA style games. It's not as good at discovering flaws in the average home game. I think 3e can attest to that. From what I recall, 3e was tested in the same way. Many rules work fine within the structure of encounter based play, but break down (sometimes severely) in story based play where encounters don't happen when and how they are expected to.

Testing based on story-based play gives us playtesters who demand that monks and paladins can't multi-class, but apparently didn't bat an eye at game-breaking spells. I'd like a little more RPGA-style testing, thanks.

 

[Wormwood]

Testing based on story-based play gives us playtesters who demand that monks and paladins can't multi-class, but apparently didn't bat an eye at game-breaking spells.

*shudder*

I'd almost forgotten about . . . those . . . people.

 

[RigaMortus2]

It's what you play when you can't get in a real group and want a fix. It's the crack of dungeons and dragons.

I don't do this often (ever, really)... BUT... SIG'ed!

Edit: Grrr, just when I see a good sig, I go a couple posts down and see Henry's "don't insult RPGA post". Fine, I can respect that... removed from sig

Edit 2: Ok, so I hid it (I still think it is a funny quote). If hidding it is against the rules, I'll remove it altogether...

 

[D'karr]

And how did you leave your mark on that adventure when in 5 minutes after you complete an adventure, the DM will run it again as if the events you just did did not even occur? When you runn the next intallment of that series, whatever you did in the first (unless you followed the book to the tee) did not happen.

And what does that have to do with playtesting?

You limit stuff (and others to) in their campaign because you can. RPGA rules have to in order to run the games in the environment they do, its a necessity. The fact that the Living Greyhawk exists is proof that it does change the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. I am not going to get into what rules are necessary and which aren't. This is a new set of books, all the rules are necessary until proven otherwise.

And what do you think the playtesters are doing? Are they throwing some rules out before playing the game? That is a ridiculous notion.

The playtesters will test to the parameters that WotC provides. So if a whole PHB is given to them for playtesting then they will use the stuff that appears within. How is that limiting?

Honestly your argument seems to be an argument just for the sake of bashing the RPGA. You have not provided one instance of play with the RPGA, that does not happen regularly at home campaigns also.

 

[Umbran]

No one's being offensive, I'm stating a fact. The RPGA has a supplemental guide, about 20 pages long, of rules changes that alter the core d and d rules.

Lots of folks have house rules documents longer than that, DonTadow. If you are going to try to tell folks that means they aren't playing D&D either... well, you're not going to see much acceptance of your point.

In my observation, "being D&D" isn't well-defined. Thus, trying to cut someone outside of it based on any particular criteria isn't going to fly very well. Now, if you could argue that a big group of folks who do play in RPGA games agree that it no longer feels like D&D to them, you'd be getting somewhere. But I don't think you'll find such a group - and failing to find that group seems telling to me...

 

[gothmaugCC]

And how did you leave your mark on that adventure when in 5 minutes after you complete an adventure, the DM will run it again as if the events you just did did not even occur? When you runn the next intallment of that series, whatever you did in the first (unless you followed the book to the tee) did not happen.
QUOTE]

We don't leave our mark huh? Obviously you don't pay much attention to how many of the RPGA campaigns work.

NOTE: for those of you who dont know, Living Arcanis is a ex-RPGA game set on the world of Arcanis (paradigmconcepts.com) that was a member of the RPGA for many years (until asked to leave when the RPGA cleaned house of all non-WOTC games). Its also the second most popular "Living" game out there.

Now Then

I RAN the final table for the Living Arcanis special mission back in gencon 2002. Yes there was a final table of adventures, adventurers who went above and beyond the call of duty and so impressed the judging staff with the creativity and roleplaying they were asked to take place in a special adventure to decide the fate of the world. AND THE RESULT OF THIER ADVENTURE CHANGED THE PUBLISHED PRODUCT FOR THE COMPANY and reshaped the world. Now thats player power.

For as long as Living Arcanis was in the RPGA, the players had a say in the plotline. As players completed adventures, the staff took the most common result, and that became cannon for the system, appearing in publised works and reshaping the story arcs.

I also happen to play Living GREYHAWK in Florida. And guess what? The result of our adventures for YEARS have been tallied by the Triad for the region and used to shape the various story arcs.

So yes, you play the same adventure as alot of people. SO what? How many people here played Tome of Horrors? Just because people play the same daventure doesn't subtract from the overall experience.

I'm sorry DonTadow that you seem to have such a lousy RPGA experience, but your decisions DO affect the overall story arcs in many campaigns. So stop misinforming the rest of the player base.


GothmaugCC

P.S. A bit of vernacular for our non RPGA freinds out there.

"Slot". A 4 hour block of time in which one module is played. Some Modules are desined for 2 slots back to back.

"Module". The actual DnD adventure. Most of these are written by fellow players and submitted to the approriate spponsors/organizers who edit/tweak then approve them for tournament play.

Tournament". These usually only occur at Conventions or gaming stores. Each table is usually rated on its performance in completing the adventure, how well they worked as a team and how much fun and energy the table put into Roleplaying. The best table(s) usually move on to a special round with unique adventures, or may win some type of prize.

Table" A group of 4-6 players with a Gm.

GM" Game master or DUngeon master

"Story arc" A series of interlinking adventures (usually 3, 5 or 7) that are meant to be played in a set order and continue a tale. Kind of a Mini home campaign.

"Living campaign" Any type of campaign that is associalted with the RPGA or other tournament based gameplay. ie. Living Greyhawk, Living Arcanis, Living Ebberon, etc.

"Stat-monkey" Someone who knows virtually every rule in existance

"Cheese-Weasel" A powergamer who finds every last loophole in a givin gaming system