D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[RigaMortus2]

Just to chime in and add something constructive...

I'd much rather see active posters on the WotC Character Optimization boards become playtesters more than RPGA people (which I know, they can be one in the same). If the mechanics (and wording or rules) can be broken, THEY can find it!

 

[Badkarmaboy]

And how did you leave your mark on that adventure when in 5 minutes after you complete an adventure, the DM will run it again as if the events you just did did not even occur? When you runn the next intallment of that series, whatever you did in the first (unless you followed the book to the tee) did not happen.

You limit stuff (and others to) in their campaign because you can. RPGA rules have to in order to run the games in the environment they do, its a necessity. The fact that the Living Greyhawk exists is proof that it does change the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. I am not going to get into what rules are necessary and which aren't. This is a new set of books, all the rules are necessary until proven otherwise.

Well, Goth beat me to it, but here I go:

Being a triad member and one of the guys that works on the regional plot arc I have a pretty good idea of how player actions impact the story. Once a mod is written and played, Judges send in results of those tables to the triad so we can use the most commonly reported outcome to determine what happens next. We have interactive adventures that run once that move major plot points. Heck Don, the players actions determine what happens next. Gosh, what a concept! Know what else big guy? We even include PCs in our adventures after a player retires them. They can become a part cannon!

All rules are necessary until proven otherwise!? I can't even BEGIN to approach that one.

Last thing, how in the HECK does the existance of Living Greyhawk in any way prove your point that RPGA does not = D&D?

Keep digging bro!

 

[TheSeer]

Er, so you believe that it's a bad idea to have people with an established philosophy of breaking down rules for balance issues, actually send in comments about potential balance issues? I'm a little perplexed.

I mean, if your fun includes allows for potentially unbalancing rule aspects, either on the assumption that balance doesn't matter or that a good GM can compensate, that's fine. That's your fun.

Me, I'm quite happy with the idea of rules that don't include unbalance, for the large number of GMs that either can't adequately deal with such systems or don't want to.

If it's want you want in your home game, it's quite easier to add something unbalancing as a house rule than it is to strip it out of the system. Feel free to add 3e polymorph or haste into your 4e game; it doesn't affect my fun.

Actually, I didn't say anything of the sort. What I said was that everything that I have read about the new rules (More rapid advancement, more choices, higher level cap) goes contrary to the rules RPGA applies to itself (measured/slow advancement, restricting choices, lower level cap).

With those things being true, is it not unreasonable to wonder if that thinking might affect their evaluation of the changes. I cast no aspersions on the RPGA, and in fact earlier in the post had said that I thought they would make great testers. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that in their eyes, restriction from choices/advancement/level is their preferred playstyle. It isn't necassarily mine, therefore I have concerns that their evaluation on those topics might not match up with mine or others not in the RPGA.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I think that the organized and iterative (that is, different people play through the same adventure again and again) nature of the RPGA make it a perfect environment in which to playtest. Further, I find the assertion that the 'house rules' of the RPGA make it somehow less than 'real D&D' to be ignorant and offensive.

Later
silver

 

[Cadfan]

Who cares about the house rules of the RPGA in this context?

Honestly, this is the biggest red herring argument ever. Its not like they're going to use those house rules while playtesting 4e.

 

[gothmaugCC]

Actually, I didn't say anything of the sort. What I said was that everything that I have read about the new rules (More rapid advancement, more choices, higher level cap) goes contrary to the rules RPGA applies to itself (measured/slow advancement, restricting choices, lower level cap).

With those things being true, is it not unreasonable to wonder if that thinking might affect their evaluation of the changes. I cast no aspersions on the RPGA, and in fact earlier in the post had said that I thought they would make great testers. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that in their eyes, restriction from choices/advancement/level is their preferred playstyle. It isn't necassarily mine, therefore I have concerns that their evaluation on those topics might not match up with mine or others not in the RPGA.

Bwhahahahah! Restrictions is our chosen playstyle. You slay me!! All of those restrictions that are put in place by Living Cmpaigns are there for one of two reasons:

1) to level the playing field bewtween everyone involved. (hence things like point buy system for ability scoes instead of random rolls). Its no fun playing with cheaters.

2) To remove game breaking effects that otherwise inhibit play (like 3.0 polymorph) oh have gamebreaking effects that are hard to police in a closed system (Wish for exapmle).

Its not our preferred playstyle, On the contrary you need to see the bitching and moaning about the banning of a particular spell fills the boards. But it is a necessary control in a tournament system where there are no concequences if you dont show up for a game for days, weeks, or even years later.

But I stray from the purpose of this post. Hour for hour, its very very hard to beat the amount of playtime the average RPGA player has under his belt. If there's a exploitable flaw in the COMBAT aspect of the game, they will find it quick. Flavor-wise, less so, but if you think about it, Flavor can be changed as per each DM and Players individual tastes. The base combat and numerical system behind the game is much harder to alter, and needs to be rock solid at the time of release. Put it in the hands of the most prolific RPGA playgroups (or regions) and let them have at it. I guarentee they will punch holes wherever holes can be punched.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

What I said was that everything that I have read about the new rules (More rapid advancement, more choices, higher level cap) goes contrary to the rules RPGA applies to itself (measured/slow advancement, restricting choices, lower level cap).

Those rules don't apply to the RPGA. They apply to the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign.

I guarantee you that the slower advancement will also apply to the RPGA's 4e Living Forgotten Realms. A common adjustment in home campaigns.

I strongly doubt that Living FR players will not be allowed to play an evil character (one example of limited choices). Like most home campaigns.

The level cap in Living Greyhawk was implemented later in the campaign history when it became apparent that high level spells broke down game play. Originally, play was going to go to 20th level, then it was stepped to 18th, then 17th, and now foreced retirement at 16th. We have all heard that 4e development intends to fix the sweet spot so that play at high levels isn't obnoxious.

So those campaign adjustments, to me, don't bring anything for a reason why a playtest (which is not a campaign) by RPGA members is a poor choice.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Honestly, this is the biggest red herring argument ever. Its not like they're going to use those house rules while playtesting 4e.

Exactly!

 

[Creamsteak]

This thread has drifted way off from the primary topic.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

This thread has drifted way off from the primary topic.

After rereading the original post, I disagree. What was the drift?