D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[The_Baldman]

I have been to many a rpga events and can't say I've ever had one that felt like a regular campaign. It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins. Because they don't provide the same elements as a traditional game.

A better testing group would have been the writers and major contributors to 3.5 .

Just clearing up things as I see them.

RPGA events actually do sell out at Gencon and Origins. We sold out most of our big events for Gencon within 15 minutes of tickets going on sale. We sell so many tickets that Gencon often adjusts their ticket selling policies based upon our schedules. We ran over 3,500 people through our D&D Delve event at Gencon alone. We sold out every ticket for Star Wars, LG Special, Undermountain events, and many LG and D&D Open rounds months before the show even started. Overall I believe we hit over 85% tickets sold during pre-reg and many more sold out onsite. We ran over 1000+ 5 hour blocks of games during the 4 days of Gencon on top of hundreds of mini's players and delve. Anybody that came up to Sagamore Ballroom can atest to how busy we were.

Also please do not compare a convention gaming experience with a home game. Apples and oranges. At a show you have a limited frame of time 4-5 hours to convey a plot hook, a story, and some sort of satisfactory conclusion. This is what players expect in ANY D&D game at Gencon not just ours. It's a tough act to write for regardless. Home games (and the RPGA does those as well) you have a lot more time to explore things.

Dave C
Origins and Gencon RPGA Senior GM

 

[The_Baldman]

So I am not going to go into some of the various posts on here because frankly it's not worth my time or yours. Some people are set in their opinions and nothing I say nor do is going to change that.

What I will state is the RPGA is really at it's core a great bunch of people. As with any large organization (over 100,000 members) we have some idiots. Cannot be helped. Unlike a home game where the DM would just boot him out we are kinda stuck with them. It's part of being an open to everybody group. They are rare though (but some of the things they do reach epic Leroy Jenkins status amongst the rumor mongers).

So for those that used to play and strayed or those that never did and are curious feel free to ask me anything you want about how things work and you'll get a 100% honest answer. The RPGA is not for everybody but for those that do give it an honest try they tend to hang around and make a lot of new friends who enjoy the same things they do. You will find yourself more in touch with the game and the people that write it then ever before and may even find meaningful ways to contribute to the game and hobby you love.

Dave C
RPGA Guy o' Many Hats

 

[D'karr]

Sigh. Again, never said that they were a poor choice. Have multiple times stated they would be a good choice, but that their playtest reporting might be skewed by their experiences (ie: the idea that high level spells broke down game play - while there are broken spells, not all high level spells break down game play, but RPGA just outrights bans them all). As I said, it was just a concern, not that they wouldn't do a good job.

That is a valid concern. However, it would be the same concern for any gaming group selected for playtesting.

Singling out your concern to the RPGA groups is rather unfair. There are probably as many, if not more, restrictions on some home campaigns and I don't see anyone here complaining about that.

My hope is that the groups selected are "professional" in their approach to testing. And I would expect that from RPGA groups as well as others.

 

[reanjr]

1. Why are you dividing "story based gamers" from "RPGA gamers"? Like guys who want to game with the RPGA don't want a story? Apparently I've been wasting my time helping to develop a story line and plot arc in my region....

What I mean by story based games is those that have a continuing arc complete with downtime, extra-adventure plot threads, etc. RPGA doesn't really offer this. Most home campaigns do.

2. 95% of the people I know in the RPGA are active in one or more home games. The line you're drawing is arbitrary at best. The RPGA just gives the devs a better known quantity to deal with in the inital wave of the playtest.

It's not arbitrary in the context of game testing. A group of RPGA gamers will very likely play the game in a distinctly different way than a group of people who are only home gamers. I'm just saying I want both sets represented - which is happening... so no problem. I was responding to someone who was implying that the input of home gamers was unwanted and the game should be tested by RPGA members only.

 

[DonTadow]

Well, Goth beat me to it, but here I go:

Being a triad member and one of the guys that works on the regional plot arc I have a pretty good idea of how player actions impact the story. Once a mod is written and played, Judges send in results of those tables to the triad so we can use the most commonly reported outcome to determine what happens next. We have interactive adventures that run once that move major plot points. Heck Don, the players actions determine what happens next. Gosh, what a concept! Know what else big guy? We even include PCs in our adventures after a player retires them. They can become a part cannon!

All rules are necessary until proven otherwise!? I can't even BEGIN to approach that one.

Last thing, how in the HECK does the existance of Living Greyhawk in any way prove your point that RPGA does not = D&D?

Keep digging bro!

So nothing about what the players did for the previous 4 hours matter except if at the end of the adventure they check off "beat bbbg" or "let bbeg live" and those whom weren't in the majority have no impact on the story, those whom are in the majority have a predetermined outcome.

This isn't about the people in rpga, heck i have been in it for about 8 years or so, though i stopped playing the "story games" long ago because there were better ones out there like LEgend of the shining jewel and blackmoor. This is about playtesting a product and the right people to begin doing it. This seems like more of a hand to strengthen Wotc's own brand, the rpga, rather than begin honest feed back playtesting data.

Point is that people whom are not used to playing by the core rules by charter of their organization is being used to playtest the rules.

 

[DonTadow]

Just clearing up things as I see them.

RPGA events actually do sell out at Gencon and Origins. We sold out most of our big events for Gencon within 15 minutes of tickets going on sale. We sell so many tickets that Gencon often adjusts their ticket selling policies based upon our schedules. We ran over 3,500 people through our D&D Delve event at Gencon alone. We sold out every ticket for Star Wars, LG Special, Undermountain events, and many LG and D&D Open rounds months before the show even started. Overall I believe we hit over 85% tickets sold during pre-reg and many more sold out onsite. We ran over 1000+ 5 hour blocks of games during the 4 days of Gencon on top of hundreds of mini's players and delve. Anybody that came up to Sagamore Ballroom can atest to how busy we were.

Also please do not compare a convention gaming experience with a home game. Apples and oranges. At a show you have a limited frame of time 4-5 hours to convey a plot hook, a story, and some sort of satisfactory conclusion. This is what players expect in ANY D&D game at Gencon not just ours. It's a tough act to write for regardless. Home games (and the RPGA does those as well) you have a lot more time to explore things.

Dave C
Origins and Gencon RPGA Senior GM

Let me rephrase that. RPga events do not sell out until the event. They are the only d and d games that you can get in (other than homebrews in your room) when you get to the event. Again, they are the crack of dungeons and dragons, good easy drug to get to and you're going to get your experience. It's not as good as the pure cocaine homebrew campaign and surely not as much fun as one of the premiere DMs or games but it'll get your role playing off.

 

[Treebore]

I think that the organized and iterative (that is, different people play through the same adventure again and again) nature of the RPGA make it a perfect environment in which to playtest. Further, I find the assertion that the 'house rules' of the RPGA make it somehow less than 'real D&D' to be ignorant and offensive.

Later
silver

Its not ignorant or offensive, its plain fact. The RPGA "house rules" D&D, so just like anyone who house rules their D&D game they are NOT playing Canon or BtB (Which means "By the Book" for the poster who asked earlier in this thread). To properly playtest 4E its going to have to be played BtB/Canon, and at all levels of play, even above 30th.

So even the RPGA is going to have to ignore their "house rules" and play 4E BtB to effectively test it and be able to spot rules problems. Just because it works in the first to twelth level range doesn't mean it will still work at the 20th to 30th level range.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Point is that people whom are not used to playing by the core rules by charter of their organization is being used to playtest the rules.

Are not used to? *boggle*

. . . by "charter" of the RPGA? *boggle*

As soon as you play an RPGA published adventure your brain must erase all memory of how to play in less structured home campaigns?

 

[Henry]

Its not ignorant or offensive, its plain fact. The RPGA "house rules" D&D, so just like anyone who house rules their D&D game they are NOT playing Canon or BtB (Which means "By the Book" for the poster who asked earlier in this thread). To properly playtest 4E its going to have to be played BtB/Canon, and at all levels of play, even above 30th.

I agree with the last sentence - but I can't see any logic except a leap of logic that says RPGA'ers are going to be playtesting 4E with RPGA rules! I imagine they'll be doing exactly what WotC asks - and that's probably the BIGGEST reason WotC wanted to include them in playtesting. The RPGA DMs are used to organization, turning in results, getting player queries from their players, etc. Those skills alone make them a valuable group for inclusion, and I don't know why they wouldn't be.


DonTadow, I have to wonder: Are you advocating that they shouldn't be included at all, or that they shouldn't have been "first?" If it's the second one, then I would think you could rest assured - they were only "first" by a couple of weeks at most! If it's the former instead, then I have to disagree for the reason I stated above.

 

[Henry]

I'll also note that some of the biggest RPG publishers for d20 got their start with the RPGA - as mentioned before, Erik Mona had this little thing called Polyhedron under his belt before he became God of All Things Dragon and Dungeon to the gaming community. I may not play any more in the RPGA (I was a member for two years, but got turned off by bad experiences myself) but I respect their ability to get that herd of cats organized.