D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[Badkarmaboy]

So nothing about what the players did for the previous 4 hours matter except if at the end of the adventure they check off "beat bbbg" or "let bbeg live" and those whom weren't in the majority have no impact on the story, those whom are in the majority have a predetermined outcome.

This isn't about the people in rpga, heck i have been in it for about 8 years or so, though i stopped playing the "story games" long ago because there were better ones out there like LEgend of the shining jewel and blackmoor. This is about playtesting a product and the right people to begin doing it. This seems like more of a hand to strengthen Wotc's own brand, the rpga, rather than begin honest feed back playtesting data.

Point is that people whom are not used to playing by the core rules by charter of their organization is being used to playtest the rules.

Oh my God Don....OH MY GOD. I just told you...Goth just told you that we MUST play with 3.5 rules. We're gonna use 4E rules when IT comes out too!

Look at your statement, "This seems like more of a hand to strengthen Wotc's own brand, the rpga, rather than begin honest feed back playtesting data" and tell me what possible sense that makes. Yes, wotc wants to strengthen the RPGA by having them playtest something they can't talk about. You figured out their evil plan!

I appreciate tenacity bro, but this borders on silly. SILLY.

 

[Treebore]

I agree with the last sentence - but I can't see any logic except a leap of logic that says RPGA'ers are going to be playtesting 4E with RPGA rules! I imagine they'll be doing exactly what WotC asks - and that's probably the BIGGEST reason WotC wanted to include them in playtesting. The RPGA DMs are used to organization, turning in results, getting player queries from their players, etc. Those skills alone make them a valuable group for inclusion, and I don't know why they wouldn't be.


DonTadow, I have to wonder: Are you advocating that they shouldn't be included at all, or that they shouldn't have been "first?" If it's the second one, then I would think you could rest assured - they were only "first" by a couple of weeks at most! If it's the former instead, then I have to disagree for the reason I stated above.

I agree, which is why I said even the RPGA is going to have to ignore their "house rules" to properly test 4E. I was assuming WOTC would require them to playtest BtB only, otherwise it wouldn't be effective playtesting. Plus it is a good chance for the RPGA people to see if they may be able to get away with fewer RPGA House Rules once 4E can be used by all RPGA members.

So it will be a great chance for both organizations to get an idea of how things will happen in 4E.

 

[Hussar]

Something to remember as well, as far as the whole "house Rules" issue goes is that most, if not all of the house rules WON'T APPLY to the new ruleset. They won't apply because they are house rules for 3.5, not 4e. For the exact same reason that my houserules for 2e don't apply to my 3e games, RPGA's houserules for 3e won't apply to 4e.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Something I can se in the future is that the RPGA will really become the backbone of the DDI. Imagine for a second if you can start playing RPGA official adventures over the virtual tabletop. That way, you can now rack up RPGA points 24/7. With the rather large number of RPGA members, it could be that WOTC is banking on RPGA to really drive sales of 4e.

 

[The_Baldman]

Let me rephrase that. RPga events do not sell out until the event. They are the only d and d games that you can get in (other than homebrews in your room) when you get to the event. Again, they are the crack of dungeons and dragons, good easy drug to get to and you're going to get your experience. It's not as good as the pure cocaine homebrew campaign and surely not as much fun as one of the premiere DMs or games but it'll get your role playing off.

Dude you rephrase all you want but it's obvious your just pulling stuff out of thin air trying to justify your position without any data to back anything up (unlike myself).

Almost all our events sell out in pre-reg. The ONLY reason you can get into them is I (yes me personally) am smart enough to realize the demand that is there for on the spot games and schedule in extra judges on our most popular events above and beyond what is in the system. This way I can handle the onsite player base that just picks up generics and wander around looking to play games. It keeps everybody happy and everybody coming back. I have over 200 judges putting in over 6,000 total man hours of work to make what we do at Gencon happen. Nobody else comes close. Call it generic or call it crap but we give more people a great time at the show then anybody else.

To call all RPGA DM's lesser compared to your 'premiere' DMs is just sad. The broad stroke of the brush there shows exactly where you are coming from and the lack of any real substance to your arguement. I have judges I would put up against anybody this side of Monte Cook or Gary (and I've played with both and I know). I can sit them down for 15 hours a day and throw a random group of 6 people between 1st and 15th level at them and I will guarantee 6 happy people walking away from that table 5 hours later. I can sit them down for an entire day running young kids through D&D for Beginners and watch kids smile and learn the joy of D&D for the first time and dragging their parents back to the dealer hall to buy them some books and dice. Both of those take skill. It takes being able to think on your feet and adjust to the styles of the players at your table. You need to be able to crunch numbers like a god to keep the table of all 15th level power gaming munchkins happy just so five hours latter the group of all 13 year old kids with 1st level characters all named Bruce can stretch your talent in another direction. It takes skill and I am proud to say the core of my judge legions has that in spades and I'll put it up against any other group any day of the week. I'm not bashing any group because I don't fly that way. I am just saying we're good, we've shown it, and we've earned it.

Independant judges doing their thing is great. I want to take nothing away from that. I've had some great games in my days and I have had some stinkers as well. No better or worse then what most expect of us. What we give though is a set base of what to expect when you sit down. You know the rules of the game when you sit down. You know what character you will have because it's yours. You know that if a judge does get a rule wrong there is an extablished way to get it fixed. You know for your dollar you are going to get a prepared judge who will be on time and professional. His or her DM'ing style but night always be your cup of tea but realize your playing style might not be his either but he's still doing his best to give you a good time.

Okay I've ranted enough.

Dave C
RPGA DM and damn proud of it

 

[The_Baldman]

Are not used to? *boggle*

. . . by "charter" of the RPGA? *boggle*

As soon as you play an RPGA published adventure your brain must erase all memory of how to play in less structured home campaigns?

Dude I'm with ya. I have no clue where all this false and just wrong info is coming from. It boggles my boggle beyond repair.

Dave

 

[The_Baldman]

I agree, which is why I said even the RPGA is going to have to ignore their "house rules" to properly test 4E. I was assuming WOTC would require them to playtest BtB only, otherwise it wouldn't be effective playtesting. Plus it is a good chance for the RPGA people to see if they may be able to get away with fewer RPGA House Rules once 4E can be used by all RPGA members.

So it will be a great chance for both organizations to get an idea of how things will happen in 4E.

Okay guys. What the heck are you guys blathering about over and over again about house rules ? The reason people like a lot of our games is they are core 3.5 rules. We are required to use the books as written with all published D&D errata on the website. If you own a PHB 3.5 you can play any of our games.

The LGCS (which is what most are citing even if without knowing it) is the Campaign Rules for the Living Greyhawk campaign (Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook - LGCS). It lists how to make a character and play within the campaign. It's nothing different then any DM does when he starts a new campaign.

So lets look at this massive book of RPGA 'House' rules. I should know it pretty well since I wrote the first one. It's 26 pages long including cover and Table of contents. So we are down to 24 pages now. First part goes over what the campaign is and some terms, then we hit character creation which once again nothing exciting, then how to track xp, gp, and items - stuff you do in a home game already. Then we hit the meat of the book and all the books that we use within the campaign. Thus defining all the options you as a player have for your character. Anything that has a component that would normally be handled by a home game judge we try to spell out so that all 20,000 of our players on the same page. We are not changing any rules. We are not ignoring any rules. We may choose not to use certain feats or spells in the game due to their unbalancing nature in our play structure but we're not changing them.

Regardless we don't have some set of rules that applies across the board to the entire RPGA on how we do things. This is just a totally false premise and myth that needs to die. LG, MoH, and LK are core 3.5 campaigns. Own a PHB and play. That's it. THere is not some mindset of rules changes that are going to make people playtest things wrong. That idea is just dumb and needs to die a quick death.

Dave C



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[Piratecat]

Deep breath, Dave. It's fine to represent the RPGA -- and you're in a better position to do so than almost anyone else I can think of -- but please don't slip down into insults. That goes for anyone else as well.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Okay guys. What the heck are you guys blathering about over and over again about house rules ?

The one I can come up with really is that in a Living Campaign you can't kill a guy and take his things and make them yours. In a Living Campaign you only get the treasure value of the item and the opportunity to purchase it later on when you can afford it.

But that kind of "rule" is in place to ensure the characters are closer in line with the Core assumptions about character wealth (which in 3.5 is clearly a big deal), so in that regard Living Campaigns right now are more in line with Core rules because it prevents the stupidity of a DM giving 3rd level characters +2 keen longswords.

 

[The_Baldman]

Deep breath, Dave. It's fine to represent the RPGA -- and you're in a better position to do so than almost anyone else I can think of -- but please don't slip down into insults. That goes for anyone else as well.

Keep breathing LOL. I tend to get very defense quickly when posters attack my peeps. They are hard working individuals who deserve a lot better then most seem to be willing to give them. I thought I was actually being tame compared to most but I'll tone it down some.

Dave C

 

[Thunderfoot]

No one's being offensive, I'm stating a fact. The RPGA has a supplemental guide, about 20 pages long, of rules changes that alter the core d and d rules. Thus it is not dungeons and dragons as written. Major changes include item handouts, xp, certain roleplaying type abilities and feats and restricted classes and skills.

Just like any other homebrew game or even ANY game. I would NEVER allow some of the crap out of Dragon Magazine that some players drag to the table. Rule 0, my option as DM.

The environment is not the dungeons and dragons environment described in the DMG. Sure there's a dungeon master, players and an adventure, but by using that logic Gurps, True 20, Shadowrun, and Serenity are all Dungeons and Dragons as well. RPGA events are what they are events. THe campaigns described in the dMG are not there. Whereas the 3.5 books stress player interaction and development, that is impossible in an RPGA environment (just which group's story would be the main one).

So it appears that you cannot separate RPGA events from RPGA games. So the problem lies with you, not the organization. I run an RPGA game that is a homebrew, it follows all the guidelines of the accepted rules, that I proscribe, and follows the table rules that the RPGA proscribes, I can be as epic as I want to be. RPGA certified and not an event.

I have been to many a rpga events and can't say I've ever had one that felt like a regular campaign. It's good for a gaming fix but there's a reason why they don't sell out at Gencons and Origins. Because they don't provide the same elements as a traditional game.

A better testing group would have been the writers and major contributors to 3.5 .

Of course not, events ARE NOT regular campaigns, though the campaign sessions are. Your problem is you cannot separate the organization from the events that you have gone to, we are more than GenCon, Origins and Winter Fantasy (D&D Experience). If you cannot wrap your mind around that, then no amount of pleading, cajoling and prodding will break that from your psyche and for that I am sorry. The organization as a whole is a vibrant group of home games that get a chance to run together about three times a year, very similar to the Con games run by the ENworlders at said Cons. If you honestly believe that someone is playtesting 4E using a 4 hour clock...you're probably right. If you think every RPGA tester has the timer on, you are sadly mistaken.

And frankly I don't want the writers of 3.5 to playtest, I want someone who plays, not writes, because the mentality is different.