D&D 4E Really?? Is RPGA really the best place to test 4e

[DonTadow]

Some people don't feel it's naturally dungeons and dragons. I've had a ton of horror stories about the RPGA which caused me to stop playing in events all together a few years ago.

RPGA's aren't modules. They are scored games. There is no risky side quests or PC initiated stories that create the plot. Few DMs I know run a long module from beginning to end without instituting many of their own enhancements, stories and multiplots. You don't get that with RPGA events. You get a set story, a random DM (I've had good ones and a majority of crappy ones) and if you're at a convention count on one snot nosed kid. The PCs have no relevance to the plot, as they are designed to be that way so that 100s of groups can run it. It's what you play when you can't get in a real group and want a fix. It's the crack of dungeons and dragons. So little relevance the PCs have to the plot is the writer of the module will tell you what "really" happened in that module sometime later to keep a coherent story together.

How many d and d games have you been in where what you did not matter. The RPGA isn't Dungeons and dragons, its a light version in order to get a bunch of people to pretend they are in the same world. A mumbomagumbo of tabletop and mmorpg. So why test out your new system beginning with tests that don't resemble the actual use of the product. It would be like GE testing out toasters by seeing how fast they can warm up a house.

So why in the world is it the first testing grounds for the new edition?

 

[WayneLigon]

Given the couple of RPGA groups I know, I would want them to have first crack at a news rules set for one big reason: if there is a loophole, they will find it. If there is a way to break a class, a spell, a feat, or anything else, they will find it. That's one of the big things you want in playtesting.

In our normal campaigns, we might stumble upon a certain rules situation once or twice a year. They'll probably find it that first night.

 

[mhensley]

Yes it is.

The few rpga dm's that I know (and have played a few games with) are extremely knowledgeable about the rules and are very experienced at running games. They run several games per week and attend an obscene number of conventions. If anyone has earned the right to playtest, it is them.

 

[Henry]

First of all, I want to repeat a rejoinder of Piratecat's earlier warning in another thread: Let's eveyrone try to avoid insults on the RPGA or its members in general, on the grounds that they're first and foremost tabletop gamers, same as non-RPGA members. Are they a different environment than the disorganized online gaming groups around the world? Yes, I'll concede, they're different from the tabletop weekend games that make up the majority of D&D gamers around the world. On the grounds of that, it's a decent question.

Given the couple of RPGA groups I know, I would want them to have first crack at a news rules set for one big reason: if there is a loophole, they will find it. If there is a way to break a class, a spell, a feat, or anything else, they will find it. That's one of the big things you want in playtesting.

In our normal campaigns, we might stumble upon a certain rules situation once or twice a year. They'll probably find it that first night.

That previous said, Wayne I think answers the question: They're a good environment for game-breakers, and secondly, they're ORGANIZED. They have a hierarchy, a recorded track record of who's played what, and they're on the whole used to reporting results in an organized timely fashion, more so than the average gamer on the street who just wants to see the new rules in action. They're not the first and only environment, they were just sent out slightly ahead of the D&D Insider invitations. Given there wasn't a difference of even a month in between that I can tell, I don't really even consider it favoritism, or select grouping, or any of the sort.

 

[BlackMoria]

If you are playtesting mechanics and rules, it shouldn't matter whether you are RPGA or not - if (and that is a big if) what the OP states is accurate. I don't know much about the RPGA but it shouldn't matter if a majority are just hack 'n slash types because it is rules and mechanics being playtested and whether you are deep immersive roleplaying type, story teller type, hack 'n slash type or unrepentant powergamer type - when you look at mechanics of how to play, it is not relevant.

Oh, in before the lock because I see this only becoming contentious.

 

[gothmaugCC]

The RPGA is the perfect place to quickly and efficiently test a large batch of mechanics over a wide variety of players, many of whom are very knowledgeable about the game. Remember, in RPGA games you HAVE to play by the rules, no house rules allowed, so If somethng is broken/unbalanced or generally a pain in the A**, the RPGA guys and gals will find it quick.

Also your talking about a group of people with a ridiculous ammount of gaming experience. Look at me for example. I have played just about every Living campaign out there, but if you jsut look at my Living Greyhawk playtime, i've played about 25-30 sessions of Greyhawk a year for the past 5 years. Since each session is 4 hours long, I'm looking at having played 100-120 adventures at about 400-480 hours in greyhawk alone. That doesnt count all the Living Arcanis , Living Force, Living City, and Living Blackmoor adventures i've played, or the countless adventures I've been DM for.

AND scarily enough, there are guys in the RPGA that make my time played look like a joke


So yes, if you want to test game mechanics and class balance, the RPGA is a suitable testing ground. If there's a loophole they will find it.


GothmaugCC

P.S. Just a comment to some above posts about RP and the RPGA. Depending on your table (and I try to never sit at a random table) you can end up having groups who are all about the roleplaying aspect of the game, and you can get groups who are pure, as we call them, "stat monkeys or Cheese Weasels", but most of the time you get a healthy mix of all the gaming archetypes. Yeah you get a bad group once in a while, but remember, most of the people playing are there for the same reason you are, to enjoy a DnD game. The RPGA has beena great outlet for me when Ive been too busy to host a weekly home game.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

Contentious you say?

Gosh, I don't know why I'd feel at all insulted by someone saying playing D&D with the RPGA isn't "naturally dungeons and dragons". I'm one of the "crappy DM's" the OP spoke about who wrote some of the "scored games" (not adventures, oh no) that the snot nosed kids play. Maybe play is the wrong word, mabye I should say we just sit around and pretend to be in the same world.

DonTadow, you really nailed it .

Done with the sarcasm- I've been heavily involved with the RPGA for a few years now and it's been a very positive experience. Is it the same as having a home group? No. Is it better? Not a fair question, it's a different way to do the same thing-have fun role playing.

IMHO, given the structure of the RPGA, it lends itself well to discovering flaws in the rule set. The campaign setting for Living Greyhawk tries to address it, but players are a crafty bunch and will find ways to break stuff. Discovering the breakage and dealing with it would be one of the reaons that I think that wotc would want the RPGA to playtest 4E. That's just one reason I could think of. Another reason-maybe some of those RPGA pukes who write the non-adventures that the OP hates so much are a known quantity to wotc. One of the perks of being part of LG is getting to know the devs at some of the cons. Writing and organizing for the RPGA is a good way to get your foot in the door. There's this guy named Chris Tulach (you may have seen his blog on the wotc page) who started as a lowly player in the RPGA, became a Triad member in LG, moved on to being a Circle member and is now the RPGA coordinator (and wotc employee). Gosh, it would seem that him wasting his time not-role-playing with the RPGA helped him get a career in gaming.

Ok, I'm done. Game on.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I dont even know if I should get into this conversation. Ive played with several people who where in the RPGA and I for one have never been in it.
One of the problems I had with them was the constant restrictions they felt like they needed to try and place on the game.
I'll never forget my first Star Wars game and being told by the DM (Who was an RPGA member) that if the RPGA didnt allow it neither did he. Everyone ive met in real life whove played in that group has been like that.

As a side point. When has an organized group ever been anything but inept in their given task? I can almost gurantee that is you took the rules to the people over at WOTC theorized optimization board the games loopholes would be found 10 minutes after the rules where read.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Probably most importantly from a playtest standpoint, RPGA is an organized group, and it is a known quantity.

Also, playtesters being part of RPGA gives WoTC a little more assurance that NDA's will be held to - the playtesters status within the RPGA is at risk if they break the NDA.

 

[D'karr]

[snip]The RPGA isn't Dungeons and dragons, its a light version in order to get a bunch of people to pretend they are in the same world. A mumbomagumbo of tabletop and mmorpg.

[snip]

So why in the world is it the first testing grounds for the new edition?

Wow, all those games of wrongfun I've had... I feel cheated... I'm burning my RPGA card right now. Thanks DonTadow, now I've seen the light.