Really, what good are daggers?

[Darklone]

Heard about a houserule that you don't need the feat to Quickdraw daggers...

 

[Al]

It's a finessable simple weapon that can be thrown. For rogues of any level, it's a godsend. At high levels, this cannot be underestimated. As soon as the rogue gets his second attack, he is wasting key sneak attack opportunities if he's having to wander around the battlefield before stabbing people. How much better to be able to throw daggers *and* not be caught out in melee?

Try it with a shortbow and you're begging to be sundered, disarmed or grappled. Try it with a set of throwing axes or the like and not only do you have to carry twice the weight, but you're going to be working off your Str to hit rather than your Dex- a clear no-no for high level rogues.

As for damage, a top-level rogue dealing 10d6 sneak attack, with 14 Str and a +5 weapon is only dealing around 2% less damage by wielding a dagger compared with a shortsword. As has been repeatedly made clear, at high levels the base damage is broadly irrelevant, especially amongst weapons of the same size category.

 

[thalmin]

I don't think I ever played a character who didn't carry a dagger or knife. Even in 1st edition my cleric carried a one. not as a weapon (forbidden) but because it was difficult to cut a rope or a steak with a mace. My years of camping with the scouts taught me the value of carrying a knife. I still don't leave home without it (unless going to the airport.)

 

[Hand of Evil]

Knife fights, how can you not have knife fights in your game! The player and NPC circle each other, looking for an opening, the tavern crowd yelling, cheering, booing them wanting to see blood.

Weapons are lost, dropped, fumbled and while a short sword is useful it is not practical, you can't whip it from your boot top watching it strike like a hunting falcon as it leaves your hand.

They also make for great clues; the dagger in the mans back was costly, well made, a hobgoblin blade, called a Ba'Klaw, the body will soon be a zombie because of it. The players knew they were in trouble and dealing with something big.

 

[maddman75]

Cheap and easy doesn't bring monsters down. Characters that put the other party members in danger by being ineffective are not welcome in most parties, regardless of their 'coolness' and 'concealability.'

jh

I don't really play 'ye grand resource-management game'. If someone wants to make a knife fighter or a whip fighter or some other weird combo, more power to him. Give me an ineffective character with a player willing to really play him over a min/maxer any day of the week.

Even if you do play that way, while the dagger isn't a good choice for a primary weapon unless you specialize on it (quickdraw, rapidshot, PBS, etc), it is an excellent secondary weapon. Does your DM not do sunders and disarms? It's a good backup in case something happens to your Hackmaster +12.

And even my old 2e cleric, who would have lost all spells if he used a bladed weapon in combat, carried a dagger. Kind of hard to cut a rope or eat some mutton with your mace!

 

[billd91]

Most of the reasons have already been given, including what I consider the best ones -- concealability and accessability. Only rarely would someone stop a person for carrying a dagger, it isn't viewed the same way that carrying a sword would be.

I consider this point pretty important. If the town guards are letting any old adventurers wade through town bristling with weapons and kitted up with armor all the time, they aren't doing their jobs. I make it very plain to my players that always being loaded up like they're out in the wild or in the middle of a war is socially unacceptible and they will be hassled by the guards about it. Daggers, on the other hand, are nearly universally accepted as an appropriate tool to wear around, even in the churches, going to feasts, and meeting with various important personages. Any more significant weapons or armors above studded leather require special statuses for the characters to avoid trouble.

 

[herald]

1) Underwater fighting.
2) You can grapple and still hold a dagger. The dagger also keeps you from being unarmed and getting that nasty AOO.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Cheap and easy doesn't bring monsters down. Characters that put the other party members in danger by being ineffective are not welcome in most parties, regardless of their 'coolness' and 'concealability.'

You might be misunderstanding something here.

You don't use a dagger as your primary weapon - unless your character has enough other talents that don't rely on your melee abilities and yet make him useful in the campaign, or unless the main society of your setting has some really strict attitudes about bearing weapons, and the power to enforce it.

In most cases, you use a dagger as your secondary weapon. Many, if not most cities will frown upon people walking along their streets with long swords or great axes. This goes even more if you have to attend a social event among the high society - trying to get in with your favorite orc-slaying weaponry will only result in a summons for lots of guards with a bad attitude. Or maybe you want to go to a bad neighborhood. You could go there with a 5' instrument of cutting death, but the entire neighborhood would notice you - and the bad guy who you have been looking for will be warned and try to get away.

In all these instances, the dagger is your friend. You can take it with you anywhere, and unless someone makes a really good Spot check or does a full-body search, nobody is going to notice it. So carrying a dagger might not make much sense from a purely monster-hacking point of view, but it makes perfect sense from a role-playing perspective.

Your dagger - never leave home without it.

 

[Emirikol]

I always thought it was fairly obvious why a dagger was in D&D.

OK, it's established that a dagger is decent for the following situations:
1. When you have nothing else (including underwater or grappling); light mace, sickle are still better for grapple attacks.
2. When you've been swallered' by a purple worm and you have lots of time to cut yourself out
3. For picking your fingernails, lancing hemmorhoids, and for cutting turnips (very important, as turnip skins and hemmorhoids can be tough) instead of using the even more worthless Sai.
4. For fighting were-mice (low hp monsters or silvered)
5. ONLY in the hands of a rogue or person with strength

When it comes to mages, bards, sorcerers, and about any other class they really aren't worth the time when running or using another weapon would be a better option.

You guys have made some damn intersting points though and I'm starting to see it your way. I looked at the Sai, gauntlet, hammer, and shield as a weapon; and that helped me realize how valuable a dagger really may be.

One last thing though: I still think that the damage is virtually not worth your time, especially as you advance in levels. I'm wondering if the only reasonthat it isn't a d5 damage is because there isn't a d5 dice type

jh
Conan uses a bastard sword..and dagger if he's fighting were-mice


..

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

One last thing though: I still think that the damage is virtually not worth your time, especially as you advance in levels.

Oh, I can see high-level characters who still use daggers now and then.

Thieves can still use sneak attacks, and with their many bonus dice it won't matter as much what type of weapon they are using. Same goes for assassins. And it is easy to use poisoned daggers as well...

And, of course, there are these dreaded occasions when it is impractical to carry bigger weapons. And it is likely in these cases that it is likewise impractical to carry armor bigger than leather (at the most).

So when hordes of low-level mooks attack you, they actually have a chance of hurting you - especially when they've got a thief level. In that case, any weapon is better than no weapon - and if a dagger is the only weapon you have available right now, you are going to use it.

In the D&D campaigns I've participated in, daggers were rarely used. But everyone carried them, for the reasons I outlined above.