• Welcome to this new upgrade of the site. We are now on a totally different software platform. Many things will be different, and bugs are expected. Certain areas (like downloads and reviews) will take longer to import. As always, please use the Meta Forum for site queries or bug reports. Note that we (the mods and admins) are also learning the new software.
  • The RSS feed for the news page has changed. Use this link. The old one displays the forums, not the news.

5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

Hussar

Legend
I've discovered that there are certain people on this forum I simply cannot carry on conversation with. BryonD is one of them. We simply cannot have a productive conversation. So, the only posts I see from him are what others quote. Every six months or so, I try taking him off ignore and I find myself arguing the poster and not the post, and it spirals downwards.

If there are any rebuttals to my posts, others are going to have to make them.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
My first game of D&D ever was one of your Fivie games at Dundracon this year. Since then I've been to Endgame in Oakland http://www.endgameoakland.com/ every week to play and have been having a great time of it.
I'm just quoting you again, because now we have a second new-to-the-hobby player who has come back to a 5e table! Not once, but 3 weeks running to Encounters at Isle of Gamers in Santa Clara.
http://www.isleofgamers.com/

You in Feb, it's still March. At this rate, we'll have initiated a new party worth of players before the end of the year. WOOT!
 

Wicht

Villager
I've discovered that there are certain people on this forum I simply cannot carry on conversation with. BryonD is one of them. We simply cannot have a productive conversation. So, the only posts I see from him are what others quote. Every six months or so, I try taking him off ignore and I find myself arguing the poster and not the post, and it spirals downwards.

If there are any rebuttals to my posts, others are going to have to make them.
Actually, he was speaking to Tony Vargas, not you... so no worries.
 

Imaro

Adventurer
Why does all this matter anyway?

4th edition is no longer around.

Pathfinder and 5th edition are still going strong and that's really all that matters.
Because discussion in the general D&D forums, about 4e has become nearly non-existent except for the same 5 or 6 posters... and so those same posters, due to boredom in their own forums, come into the 5e forums... to antagonistically provoke 5e players into conversations about 4e...
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
I've discovered that there are certain people on this forum I simply cannot carry on conversation with. BryonD is one of them. We simply cannot have a productive conversation. So, the only posts I see from him are what others quote. Every six months or so, I try taking him off ignore and I find myself arguing the poster and not the post, and it spirals downwards.

If there are any rebuttals to my posts, others are going to have to make them.
ByronD launched into a spirited defense of Pathfinder fans not wanting/needing 'validation' for their preference over D&D, by waxing eloquent about how excitedly they flocked around Pathfinder's release. He then wondered why no one 'rebutted' him.
It's because he provided an example of the very point he was arguing against.

D&D is topping the available rankings again, now that it's back in print, and Pathfinder boosters are understandably upset. But 5e isn't Essentials - they may have to get used to being number 2 for a while.
 

sunshadow21

Villager
D&D is topping the available rankings again, now that it's back in print, and Pathfinder boosters are understandably upset. But 5e isn't Essentials - they may have to get used to being number 2 for a while.
Probably not with WotC's release schedule. For better or for worse, WotC has basically all but declared their interest in the rpg to be dead on arrival. You'll see just enough books to keep conversation about it from completely dying amonst those who don't actively play it and that's pretty much it. Depending on how big the inevitable post release dip is after the shine wears off, even that might be reduced sooner rather than later. The health of the rpg several years down the road from now remains very much an open question for now.

The more interesting comparison will be how their other products fare against Paizo's efforts at diversifying the Pathfinder brand. WotC has the brand recognition, but Paizo has the better business plan and has already achieved a basic level of saturation and brand presence in many of the markets that WotC seems to favor over the rpg. The only areas that Paizo does not yet have are computer games and movies, and the former won't be true for much longer, as PFO and Paizo's license with Obsidian makes clear. This is where WotC's recent history is going to hurt them, as their reputation as a business partner has more than a little mending that has to occur before they can easily sell the D&D brand. Because of this, even against the lesser known Pathfinder brand, WotC has no particular advantage, and that's the least of their competitors. They also have to deal with Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and even to a certain extent the various super hero franchises. It will be interesting to see if they can get their goal of enlarging the brand to work this time, especially since they won't have much of an rpg to fall back on. 4E may not have been what they wanted in terms of success, but I suspect long term it will show itself to have been more effective than this edition, which is shaping up to have very anemic long term support.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Probably not with WotC's release schedule. For better or for worse, WotC has basically all but declared their interest in the rpg to be dead on arrival.
At the risk of circling back to my first post in this thread, a slow pace of release is not necessarily all bad. Some of the drop off in demand after core, for instance, could be contributed to the way bloat impacts a game like D&D. Fewer releases, less bloat, more 'pent up demand,' maybe demand can hold steady for a while? Just a possibility.
 

sunshadow21

Villager
At the risk of circling back to my first post in this thread, a slow pace of release is not necessarily all bad. Some of the drop off in demand after core, for instance, could be contributed to the way bloat impacts a game like D&D. Fewer releases, less bloat, more 'pent up demand,' maybe demand can hold steady for a while? Just a possibility.
And as many have posted, slow is not the same in virtually nonexistent, which is precisely what their release schedule for everything up to at least late summer is. Relying on 'pent up demand' in the current entertainment market will likely get them just enough word of mouth to keep 5E from completely dying, which seems to be all they are concerned about, but is not nearly enough to keep them #1, and possibly not even routinely #2, in the rpg market. I don't think Paizo or any of the other rpg brands have anything to worry about when it comes to the competition that 5E is creating. It's a good edition and a strong enough product that we'll probably still be seeing it in some form several years from now, but nowhere near #1. There are lots of ways they could release more product while avoiding the dreaded bloat, but WotC isn't showing any interest in pursuing any of them. It's becoming clear that WotC doesn't have the remotest interest in how their rpg compares to the rest of the rpg market; the rpg is basically just a placeholder while they try to get the other licenses signed and carried through to actual, hopefully well received, product.
 

BryonD

Villager
I've discovered that there are certain people on this forum I simply cannot carry on conversation with. BryonD is one of them. We simply cannot have a productive conversation.
It is shame that Hussar is uncomfortable with me consistently refusing to let him put words in my mouth.
I agree that it is quite difficult to have a productive conversation.
You'll note that I have no need to ignore him.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
I just picked up Princes of the Apocalypse and have only had a little time to skim through it, but if Wotc only releases 2 of these types of books a year I think that is just fine! The amount of material in this book is basically a new version of the game. It has pages of customized creatures/foes, lots of sidetreks that can be used throughout the campaign in addition to the main ones in the campaign itself. It has the new spells and the Genasi. That with the free PDF player's companion (which has other races) gives me a ton to work with.

That said, I do hope that WotC lets others publish short adventures (if they don't do it themselves), or they revive a Dungeon type magazine (even in pdf version). I also hope they work out a deal with Fantasy Grounds to sell campaign/adventure modules that pre-load monsters and encounters, etc. That would definitely make my life easier.
 

bmfrosty

Villager
I think that the negativity in this thread towards what WotC may or may not release to be really overblown. We still haven't heard Gen Con announcements. We still haven't seen what's coming out of that "Open Call". Many here see the core books and adventure paths and assume that since nothing else has been announced that that's all we're going to get.

Complain if we have neither a settings nor magazine announcement by year's end. Otherwise, prognosticating doom and gloom is extremely premature.
 

SkidAce

Adventurer
I just picked up Princes of the Apocalypse and have only had a little time to skim through it, but if Wotc only releases 2 of these types of books a year I think that is just fine! The amount of material in this book is basically a new version of the game. It has pages of customized creatures/foes, lots of sidetreks that can be used throughout the campaign in addition to the main ones in the campaign itself. It has the new spells and the Genasi. That with the free PDF player's companion (which has other races) gives me a ton to work with.

That said, I do hope that WotC lets others publish short adventures (if they don't do it themselves), or they revive a Dungeon type magazine (even in pdf version). I also hope they work out a deal with Fantasy Grounds to sell campaign/adventure modules that pre-load monsters and encounters, etc. That would definitely make my life easier.
Xp'd and quoted for justice and truth!
 

Sadras

Explorer
Funny enough, given all the glowing reviews of PotA, I was just about to post something similar to what @Neechen said upthread and take it a step further and declare this thread dead!
 

Uchawi

Villager
Except for a truly good review of PoTA, people will actually have to play it or more people will need access to it. So it will probably be May or June until the final consensus is out.
 

sunshadow21

Villager
I think that the negativity in this thread towards what WotC may or may not release to be really overblown. We still haven't heard Gen Con announcements. We still haven't seen what's coming out of that "Open Call". Many here see the core books and adventure paths and assume that since nothing else has been announced that that's all we're going to get.

Complain if we have neither a settings nor magazine announcement by year's end. Otherwise, prognosticating doom and gloom is extremely premature.
While it's true we don't know much about Gen Con or after, we do know pretty much everything up to that and it's quite sparse; any fresh announcements at this point are most likely going to be for Gen Con or later, so the release schedule for everything up to mid to late summer is pretty much known at this point. And I don't really see the level of material in later periods changing that much later on given the small team they have working on it. While we will almost certainly see something, it's not likely to dramatically change the overall level of output, unless the magazines are risen from the grave in some form. That can be taken as negative or as positive as you like, but it pretty much is likely to be reality for the rpg given their repeated statements of wanting to focus on expanding the brand to other markets.

The biggest game changers they could do at this point for the rpg would be an OGL type license or resurrecting the magazines. The former would certainly help the customers and the industry if written well, but probably not do much for WotC or their sales, so even if we do eventually get one, it will probably be far enough in the future to miss the initial surge of interest that could have really helped establish 5E as a true contender in the rpg market, and the magazine is extremely unlikely. I would say if we don't see either of these things by Gen Con, we're not going to see them at all, and the sparse release schedule we see right now will be the norm. That's seems to be fine with WotC, and many posters here, but it will not be enough to keep 5E consistently near the top of any charts. As an rpg, D&D has all but ceded the throne to whoever wants to step up and claim it; right now that's Paizo, but looking forward there are other potential contenders as well. Even with an open license and/or the magazines, the formal brand is not likely to hold the top position consistently.

Prognosticating what you consider to be doom and gloom as 100% guaranteed may be premature, but short of a truly stunning announcement that would most likely be saved for Gen Con, a mostly placeholder rpg for the long term is becoming more and more likely. For better or for worse, the rpg simply isn't likely to get that much attention this go around; that much is already quite clear. The real question is whether or not that turns out to be a good strategy for the brand as a whole or not, and it will take several years to work itself out before we know the answer to that one.
 
If all of that is true, [MENTION=6667193]sunshadow21[/MENTION], it truly is puzzling because of the success of the edition, both in terms of community embrace and (presumably) sales. You'd think they'd want to really exploit it and offer a fuller release schedule, even if one reduced from previous editions. We know that the cash cow in D&D is the initial core rules, so maybe they just figure that everything else isn't worthwhile - or only enough to keep the ship floating as a placeholder for other licensed material.

But I'm not ready to say that is the case. I still think it is possible, as someone once said in some thread on this forum, that they were playing wait and see on 5E and then would determine what to produce depending upon its popularity. It could be that they have big plans but are still working out how to make them happen, and don't want to announce anything until they do. We can hope, at least.
 

sunshadow21

Villager
But I'm not ready to say that is the case. I still think it is possible, as someone once said in some thread on this forum, that they were playing wait and see on 5E and then would determine what to produce depending upon its popularity. It could be that they have big plans but are still working out how to make them happen, and don't want to announce anything until they do. We can hope, at least.
It's possible, but they've already missed most of their opportunity to ride the initial wave of success. It's not impossible that more is in the works, but given the small dev team, it's not particularly likely that we will see that much more from WotC directly. For the rpg, the only way that we'll see a notable amount of material is through some kind of open license unless WotC suddenly goes on a hiring spree and increases the size of the dev team. I would say that if we haven't heard anything more by late summer, what we are seeing now is basically what we are going to get, at least for the rpg. Some will see this as a negative, some will see it as a positive, but it's increasingly likely that it will be the long term reality.
 

Advertisement

Top