D&D General Reassesing Robert E Howards influence on D&D +

[cbwjm]

Re-read The Scarlet Citadel, Queen of the Black Coast, and/or Vale of Lost Women.

I'm not talking about "vocabulary".

In rereading Queen of the black Coast at the moment, really doesn't seem as bad as you're making it out to be.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In rereading Queen of the black Coast at the moment, really doesn't seem as bad as you're making it out to be.

Not weighing in on this particular story but you guys might want to make sure you are discussing the same edition of it, some Conan anthologies are edited for modern sensibilities and done use the original text

 

[cbwjm]

Not weighing in on this particular story but you guys might want to make sure you are discussing the same edition of it, some Conan anthologies are edited for modern sensibilities and done use the original text

The one in reading is from weird tales from Gutenberg project. The language is dated, but it doesn't seem that bad considering when it was written.

Actually, getting back to the actual topic, Queen of the Black Coast is a great example of early influence on DnD, some of the sample adventure locations are lost cities, that's mainly what this one is about. It also showcases ancient curses, and perhaps enchantment. I'm not sure if Belit is ensorcelled by the treasure she found, I'm assuming she was they way it was described, but it also showcases the typical greed of the adventurer in those early adventures.

Other cool things, a trap which killed 4 of her warriors and Conan falling to the infamous black lotus, which showed him visions of the past. All in all, a great read, I believe I'm on the last chapter which I presume is when Conan will defeat winged horror that has been stalking them.

 

[cbwjm]

Now I'm on the last chapter, but chapter 4 had another moment which is why I think rage and the barbarian class is suitable for Conan

With a terrible cry he heaved upward hurling the stone aside. The winged one came on again, and Conan sprang to meet it, his veins on fire with madness. The thews started out like cords on his forearms as he swung his great sword, pivoting on his heel with the force of the sweeping arc. Just above the hips it caught the hurtling shape, and the knotted legs fell one way, the torso another as the blade sheared clear through its hairy body.

See, to me, everyone else is focused on the beserker rage of the barbarian, in Conan it was called the red mist, but to me this passage reads like a rage attack, maybe even reckless attack. So many things that Conan has done in the stories fit the 5e barbarian class in my mind. It doesn't always mean frothing at the mouth berserk. I recall another moment where he's fighting someone stronger than himself but he managed to overcome them which I see as raging which grants advantage on strength checks.

Meanwhile, I don't see him as having many, or any, levels in thief rogue. He may have needed it in the past for the perce tile thief skills, but he was never rogue-like, his skills of climbing and stealth were a result of his Cimmerian upbringing, not thieving. He tends to brute force his way through locks, cutting them in half with his sword rather than finessing the lock.

 

[Shardstone]

In rereading Queen of the black Coast at the moment, really doesn't seem as bad as you're making it out to be.

How Howard talks about we black people is almost always racist. Its k tho, I still love his stuff. Just wish he didnt see us as giant, stupid, aggressive ape men

 

[Mannahnin]

How Howard talks about we black people is almost always racist. Its k tho, I still love his stuff. Just wish he didnt see us as giant, stupid, aggressive ape men

It's really distasteful. I found in reading the Solomon Kane tales a weird contrast between how Howard wrote about Darkest Africa and its people on one hand, vs the way he and Kane regard the shaman N'Longa, who while exoticized is still viewed as a man and a peer, someone worthy of respect and possessing essential human dignity. That there is a kinship of spirit between the two men. There seemed to me a bit of egalitarianism in those parts of the text struggling/at odds with the racist aspects.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's really distasteful. I found in reading the Solomon Kane tales a weird contrast between how Howard wrote about Darkest Africa and its people on one hand, vs the way he and Kane regard the shaman N'Longa, who while exoticized is still viewed as a man and a peer, someone worthy of respect and possessing essential human dignity. That there is a kinship of spirit between the two men. There seemed to me a bit of egalitarianism in those parts of the text struggling/at odds with the racist aspects.

There is a similar attitude in Rider Haggard's King Solomon's Mines. I think it represents a kind of doublethink between learned racist attitudes and an intelligent author thinking about an actual character.

 

[MGibster]

How Howard talks about we black people is almost always racist. Its k tho, I still love his stuff. Just wish he didnt see us as giant, stupid, aggressive ape men

You bring up a valid point. The problem doesn't just lie in a few words but in how an author might describe and treat black characters. In Lovecraft's Herbert West - Reanimator, one of my favorite stories of his, it's not the racist name he gives to the cat that bothers me the most. It's his hateful description of the black boxer which perfectly matches your description above.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

But I really don't think that kind of writing provides any insights into the man's thinking.

REH's philosophy and views on life are all over his writing. His dislikes of civilization and authority, his belief in past lives, the inevitable rise and fall of peoples, and yes, his more problematic views. All the stuff he writes about in his letters shows up in his stories. It's ironic, considering there are plenty of people that laud Sword and Sorcery for supposedly being just action and adventure, with no deeper meaning.

Actually, getting back to the actual topic, Queen of the Black Coast is a great example of early influence on DnD, some of the sample adventure locations are lost cities, that's mainly what this one is about. It also showcases ancient curses, and perhaps enchantment. I'm not sure if Belit is ensorcelled by the treasure she found, I'm assuming she was they way it was described, but it also showcases the typical greed of the adventurer in those early adventures.

Trapped treasure shows up in more than one occasion in REH's writing, and it's very easy to see the influence of it on some of the gotcha traps of early D&D.

 

[Kurotowa]

REH's philosophy and views on life are all over his writing. His dislikes of civilization and authority, his belief in past lives, the inevitable rise and fall of peoples, and yes, his more problematic views. All the stuff he writes about in his letters shows up in his stories. It's ironic, considering there are plenty of people that laud Sword and Sorcery for supposedly being just action and adventure, with no deeper meaning.

It's like the aphorism about how fish don't have a word for water. Anyone who says a series or genre don't have a specific worldview and set of assumptions built into it is just someone who's so comfortable with them that they feel invisible. Unless you're doing critical analysis, those implicit assumptions only really stand out when they clash with your own beliefs.

(Well, that, or the person's tastes formed when they were young and they've never reexamined the works with an adult's eye. See: Conservative politicians professing their love for Rage Against The Machine and the band members shooting back "We don't want you, we're Rage Against The Machine, and you are the machine.")