Recent Star Wars Saga chat session with designers

Klaus said:
WotC has been suggesting such for a while, saying it's far more effective to have a few maximized skills than tons of dabbling-level skills).
WotC is wrong on this point. At least for D&D and Star Wars RCR (SAGA may change this). DCs are low enough for most skills that only opposed skills need to continue improving after getting the first 5 or so ranks.
Hides, Spots and Open Locks need to keep improving because the difficulty keeps going up (either due to opposition or to high starting DCs and ease of increasing DCs) but Tumble, Balance, Knowledge and the rest really don't need to improve after the first half-dozen skill points unless it is important to the character concept.

While a +97 Jump check is both awesome and powerful, 99.9% of adventurers will see no more benefit than if they had a +12 Jump check.
Greg K said:
Without skill points, this "organic" growth is not possible as the player cannot control how and when individual skills improve in response to the events of the campaign.
This is my concern as well. On the other hand, it is possible that the three wise men already thought of this and have designed such growth into the system. This would please me, as I've found skills become more powerful when characters actually have them. Suddenly they can succeed, so they attempt to use the skills, so the skills become useful so they players acquire more skills and the result is that a 'fringe game mechanic' becomes a flexible, powerful and fun part of the game.

All that said, I'm willing to be open-minded and wait to see what exactly is going on before I pass judgment. I'm skeptical but I'll be patient.

Edit: It would be awesome if they'd noticed Sadrik's Skill System as it is both simple and allows organic growth.
 
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Greg K said:
When my friends and I play, we build to the character and not necessarily what is the most effective build. There are times our characters pick up new skills, because it made sense based upon in-game situations. Yet, after initially aquiring the new skill, it may never improve; it *may* improve if the character has adventures that may require more opportunity to use the skill; or it may become something that the character dedicates themselves towards perfecting (assuming there is plenty of opportunity to use the skill). Other times, a skill that has been maxed out for several levels suddenly goes by the wayside, because either a) the characters took the campaign in a direction in which the skill did not get used or b) the character had a reason to focus on other interests. Without skill points, this "organic" growth is not possible as the player cannot control how and when individual skills improve in response to the events of the campaign.

You will still have control over which skills you are the best in, and it's dynamic enough that if you hit 10th level and you spent the entire last adventure sneaking around, you'll be able to increase your hiding skills through a few different methods.

The thing about the Star Wars movies is that everyone can do everything. Han Solo and Obi-Wan Kenobi need to have a bajillion skill points to be as good as they are in the movies. So, what we've done is made sure that high level characters are never completely stymied by their skill selections.

I'll give you a good example of a scenario I ran past my own playtest group. Let's say I'm running an adventure and I want to have a scene where the villain runs off, jumps onto a tauntaun, and takes off across the icy wastes of Hoth. The speeders are down, and there's no starships that can fly in the blizzard. In the movies, the heroes would hop on tauntauns and strike out across the frozen tundra, so I want to make sure my heroes get involved in a tauntaun chase sequence (your classic horse chase, only on tauntauns). Under the RCR rules, my 10th-level characters would probably shy away from such a scene amidst cries of "I don't have any ranks in Ride!" and so forth. Under the new system, the players, being 10th-level, have a reasonable chance to at least be able to stay atop the tauntaun in order to give chase. That one player that invested some abilities in making sure he was good at riding things is still rewarded, as he's able to guide that tauntaun with his knees, fire his blaster, and do all kinds of cool tricks with it. This is one case where a little-used skill would potentially stop a cool scene from taking place.

I think that a lot of people are initially startled by the whole "no skill points" thing, which is understandable. It is a radical departure from the d20 mold, but one that I think ends up being more like what we see in the movies. I think that once people see it in action (maybe not even on paper, but actually used in game play) they'll find that it works for the game as a whole.
 

I've read Moridin's stuff on SWRPG Network for years now and like the D20 Future material he's written (mostly ;) ). I especially admire that he posted a thread to get input for the follow up Future Tech, correcting many problems and adding good material/ideas.

Although I'm skeptical about these hinted at changes, I'll still likely to pick up the book because:

A. Since I'm no longer GMing SW, mostly we've outgrown Lucas' style, I'll just be harvesting it for ideas.

&

B. I'll get it at a discount. :D

I just hope all these prejudiced complaints dont panick the designers too much. Better a coherently theme product I disagree with (but can easily house rule) then a nebulous book requiring reams of errata, FAQ, and hours on the repulsor couch for Jedi Counseling. :P
 

Moridin said:
You will still have control over which skills you are the best in, and it's dynamic enough that if you hit 10th level and you spent the entire last adventure sneaking around, you'll be able to increase your hiding skills through a few different methods.

That is all and good, but will the rules allow me to determine that certain skills do not improve or do not develop at all, because of background and experience?

Unlike Star Wars characters, many of whom have backgrounds (origin, training and experiences) that we did not see develop as they occured offstage- or at had least various extended periods that occoured of stage-characters in a campaign tend to be different. We often start our characters from humble beginnings as inexperienced heroes and watch them develop every step of the way.

I'll give you a good example of a scenario I ran past my own playtest group. Let's say I'm running an adventure and I want to have a scene where the villain runs off, jumps onto a tauntaun, and takes off across the icy wastes of Hoth. The speeders are down, and there's no starships that can fly in the blizzard. In the movies, the heroes would hop on tauntauns and strike out across the frozen tundra, so I want to make sure my heroes get involved in a tauntaun chase sequence (your classic horse chase, only on tauntauns). Under the RCR rules, my 10th-level characters would probably shy away from such a scene amidst cries of "I don't have any ranks in Ride!" and so forth.

I guess that is the difference between your players and mine. Mine might very well try it at default- even just to play it for comedic value. I have had the sorcerer in my D&D campaign ride a warhorse into battle. Well, actually, he was trying to ride it away from battle and the horse charged back to try and save its master (another PC that had been knocked unconcious). Instead of jumping off because he lacked Ride (or only had a rank in it), the player played his character holding on for dear life shouting, "No horse! No!" as the horse went into battle with two monsters". Once the horse connected a few times, the sorcerer began shouting "Go, horsey! Go!". The same sorcerer also jumped on the back of a flying gargoyle and, then held on for dear life as the gargoyle flew around the town trying to dislodge him.

And, should by chance, my players decide not to give chase, they'll find another method to deal with the problem-even if its at a later date. That should not be a problem- part of the appeal of an rpg (at least to me as a player and GM) is the choices the players make and how they deal with the consequences of their choices. The players decision to not have thier players do the chase should open new possibilities- it is their characters' story let their decisions determine how the story unfolds.

And, what if the PCs had prevented the villainfrom running off? You still would no chase scene.


I think that a lot of people are initially startled by the whole "no skill points" thing, which is understandable. It is a radical departure from the d20 mold, but one that I think ends up being more like what we see in the movies. I think that once people see it in action (maybe not even on paper, but actually used in game play) they'll find that it works for the game as a whole.
I'll still take a look. However, I think the issue has to do with how characters developed based upon background and expeperince over the campaign and then having the rules say that the character is better than he or she should be, because the game mechanics say so!
 

Greg K said:
However, I think the issue has to do with how characters developed based upon background and expeperince over the campaign and then having the rules say that the character is better than he or she should be, because the game mechanics say so!

A serious question: Do you have a problem with character becoming too accurate in combat despite not having focused on fighting? Or getting better and better at resisting poisons and toxins despite never being exposed to them? Or absorbing more and more punishment without ever practicing techniques for minimizing damage taken?

If so then yes, you may want to make a one-sentence houserule to help limit the benefits of gaining levels in both new and old system Star Wars, allowing players to only get better at things they feel their characters have worked on. If not, I suspect you'll find no more serious problems in SAGA.

I admit everything is a trade off and many of the new systems are no exception. So far my players seem happy with how the systems work where I've introduced them. The other extreme is to go for something more like M&M or Champions, which are brilliant games but don't focus on what we want the Star Wars game to focus on.
 

OStephens said:
A serious question: Do you have a problem with character becoming too accurate in combat despite not having focused on fighting? Or getting better and better at resisting poisons and toxins despite never being exposed to them? Or absorbing more and more punishment without ever practicing techniques for minimizing damage taken?.

Actually, I do with combat accuracy being based on level. However, -4 for non profieicency can negate the bonuses to my wizard's BAB in DND- at least for a while. I'll also allow players to trade down BAB for other bonuses. However, I defiinitely wouldn't mind seeing an M&M approach from WOTC for purchasing BAB ilike skills in their d20 games. Then again, I consider M&M to be the best d20/OGL game to date (although outside of a supers game, I wouldn't want players building their own races or classes by purchasing powers. However, purchasing BAB and skills would be fine).

Resist Poisons and toxins is more of a script immunity as is hit points/vitality points (as hp involve more than actual capacity to take physical damage)so I can accept those more readily than with skills which is one reason I ditched ADND and TSR games. However, I do dislike hd/level and vastly prefer the M&M damage save although I'll also take Massive Damage based on Con to standard DND hit points or Vitality points.

Skills I see no reason to build in bonuses based on character level. I would rather see non-trained characters use something like Action Points that give a one time bonus per point expenditure or M&M hero's Points.
 
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OStephens said:
I admit everything is a trade off and many of the new systems are no exception. So far my players seem happy with how the systems work where I've introduced them. The other extreme is to go for something more like M&M or Champions, which are brilliant games but don't focus on what we want the Star Wars game to focus on.
Interesting statement. Would WotC allow you to design beyond the purview of the d20 System (still SRD-based material but an entirely different rules template)?
 

I'm not sure that's a question I can answer. By which I don't mean I'm not allowed, I mean I'm not sure what the correct response is.

I will say when I first agreed to co-write the new Star Wars rpg, I expected to be sticking close to standard d20 rules, as seen in either D&D or d20 Modern. I had a few real surprised along the way. More than once, Rodney and I wrote to each other "they'll never let us do it, but..."

We'll see what the final version looks like, but I think more of our "out there" ideas got in than were discarded.

The people who approve of any given rpg design at WotC are, themselves, gamers. There is no corporate approval board and, that I'm aware of, no offical line that no game design may go further than. A lot of these are the same people who backed the Alternity and even Pokemon rpgs (yes, the Pokemon Jr Adventure Game -- possibly the best selling single RPG product in the history of the industry -- check it out some time if you want to game with your younger kids). They don't have a blind dedication to any one set of rules. What they want is for each game to do what it's designed to do as well as possible. Obviously some cross-compatability is a good thing, but it's far from the only concern.

I'll happily post more on this subject once the SW SAGA game is out, but until then we don't have a common reference to use for examples, so I think I'd better shut up. :-)
 

Owen/Rodney

Do you know whether WotC intends to release it 'bang' all in one go on the date, or if there are plans to start releasing information teasers in the run up to the release?

I'm not sure where they could release print teasers nowadays, but the website would do I'd guess.

I'd guess that you probably don't know anything about that side of things, but I'd be interested if you did.

Cheers
 

Last I'd heard, the WotC site will be releasing previews (I believe the editor, Gary Sarli, is working on some of those at the moment). That's all I can say for sure, though.
 

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