Reconcile This - A DM Question

[stevelabny]

Sense Motive (Wis)
Check

A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed. You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.

Hunch 20

Hunch

This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.


Sense Motive takes the place of a spot/listen to determine awareness for surprise.

I side with the people in this thread who think you have to be aware of hostile intent*, not just who is next to you, before rolling initiative.

*and it doesn't even have to be hostile, you should be able to stop non-hostile actions too... sounding alarms, passing messages etc.

 

[CroBob]

I would normally give the Fighter a surprise round. I would also award a surprise round against any player using the term 'nish'.

If the Rogue or Ranger had said they were suspicious then I'd allow Sense Motive checks to avoid being surprised, higher DC for the Rogue.

If the Rogue or Ranger said they were 'Readying' or similar then we would immediately go into Initiative.

Oh, come on, "'nish" is an awesome word!

What are the Ranger and Rogue sensing motive against? I'd figure either the Fighter sets the DC through a bluff check as he tries to hide his intentions to be sure he gets that first punch in, or he's not trying to trick anyone and takes up a fighting stance and it's pretty obvious.

There's nothing wrong with any of these solutions, to be fair. Everyone's going to have their preferred method. I presume starting a fight is obvious unless you're purposefully attempting to hide your intentions. I've seen fights before. Winding up to sock somebody in the face is generally pretty noticeable. On the other hand, just because it's noticeable, it doesn't mean you noticed in time to do anything about it. That, in my mildly humble opinion, is where the' nish roll takes place, though.

 

[S'mon]

Oh, come on, "'nish" is an awesome word!

What are the Ranger and Rogue sensing motive against? I'd figure either the Fighter sets the DC through a bluff check as he tries to hide his intentions to be sure he gets that first punch in, or he's not trying to trick anyone and takes up a fighting stance and it's pretty obvious.

There's nothing wrong with any of these solutions, to be fair. Everyone's going to have their preferred method. I presume starting a fight is obvious unless you're purposefully attempting to hide your intentions. I've seen fights before. Winding up to sock somebody in the face is generally pretty noticeable. On the other hand, just because it's noticeable, it doesn't mean you noticed in time to do anything about it. That, in my mildly humble opinion, is where the' nish roll takes place, though.

Sense Motive would be against a passive DC based on the Fighter's CHA (or Bluff skill, but he almost certainly has none), but I'd probably use a +10 DC for the Rogue 25' away. As you indicate, his body language would likely indicate he was going to attack, if the others were paying attention.

A possibly fairer way to do it would be to say that the Fighter merely wins init in round 1, no surprise round - but that's going further from RAW.

 

[N'raac]

A possibly fairer way to do it would be to say that the Fighter merely wins init in round 1, no surprise round - but that's going further from RAW.

Alternatively, as no one else knows combat is about to begin, the rogue and ranger are assumed to delay until the fighter acts, after which initiative proceeds normally (including the ability of Rogue and Ranger to act immediately after Fighter if they had better initiative).

 

[SuperZero]

A possibly fairer way to do it would be to say that the Fighter merely wins init in round 1, no surprise round - but that's going further from RAW.

Or just a circumstance bonus to the Fighter's Initiative check. The others can win, but they're less likely to.

 

[CroBob]

Or just a circumstance bonus to the Fighter's Initiative check. The others can win, but they're less likely to.

^Yes. You win, good sir.

 

[haakon1]

Fighter throws the first punch, everyone else is surprised. Then the initiative rolls matter.

Agreed. Or alternatively you could roll initiative and ask:
DM: Thiefasaurus, do you start a ruckus?
Thief Player: I walk over and stand next to them, telling them to calm down.

DM: OK, Ranger Rick, what do you do?
Ranger Player: Well if he's going to hit me, I hit him first.
DM: You don't know what he'll do until he does it. Do you throw the first punch?
Ranger Player: No. I glare at the Fighter.
DM: Is that an Intimidate check?
Fighter Player: It better not be! Throgdor doesn't like bullies.
Ranger Player: No, I'm just trying to warn him off, but I'm not escalating the situation.

DM: OK, Throgdor's init. What does he do?
Fighter Player: Sucker punch Rick in the head. Rolled 13+3 = 16.
DM: Hit. Roll for non-lethal damage.

. . . I prefer the surprise way, though.