D&D 4E Reconsidering Pathfinder over 4E

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
This is not my experience. At 18th through 20th level, it ran like a charm, and my prep time was cut substantially by the changes to skills, the feat list in the core books, and the tweaks to advanced monsters.

I mostly run opposing parties at high level. Prepping high level parties is more difficult in Pathfinder due to all the new capabilities each class has. You really have to spend time thinking out rage power schemes, fighter feat paths, and the like. Not sure why the feat list in 3.x gave you problems. It wasn't much different.

Prepping monsters is much easier than 3.x. I'll give you that.

I imagine the skill system in 3.x was much more difficult if you went by the RAW. We started going 1 for 1 on class skills very early on. So I didn't notice. I should have mentioned that.



I wouldn't describe the Fighter as "amped up," just mathematically corrected, to not only be the best Fighter (which despite what others may say they were in 3.5, in their niche), but also a full partner in dealing with varied situations. The Barbarian has more changes, and more options, and has been adjusted to be equivalent to the Fighter in capabilites (in 3.5, the math was not on their side).

The fighter is "amped up" unless a bunch of the feats they have access to now were in the PHB2 which I never picked up.

For one, they have weapon training which means they have +4 additional to hit and damage with their best weapons. So you have to plan for that BAB while still allowing the rogue to hit.

A base fighter chance to hit absent stats is +26 at lvl 20 versus including greater weapon focus and weapon training. +22 before.

A base rogue is +16 including weapon focus.

That is a 10 point difference in BAB. Which means the fighters first two attacks hit as well as a rogue. It further marginalizes the rogue's combat capabilities and most +15 BAB classes if you want to make the fight challenging for the fighter.

The extra +4 makes Power Attack very common, which greatly increases damage.

On top of that feats like I mentioned:

1. Stunning Assault and the entire assault line: DC 10 + BAB fort save or stunned. Can be used with whirlwind attack and lunge for everything in 10 feet hit.

2. Deadly Aim: Substantially boosted archer damage.

3. APG Fighter paths: Two-handed warrior boosts damage to sickening levels.

Two-weapon warriors gives two-weapon fighters some bite back.

Even Weapon Master is pretty darn good.

4. Critical Feat Line is pretty dangerous as well: Two scimitar fighters with stunning or blinding critical can end a fight pretty quick ifthe creaure isn't immune.

5. Dazzling Display is a pretty awsome debuff fighters can use. It isn't that hard a roll if optimized. Everything within 30 feet shaken and -2 on attacks, saves, and skills is pretty substantial.


I'm not much sure how you can claim fighters aren't amped up over 3.x. I'd say a Pathfinder fighter will kill a 3.x no Prc fighter 90% of the time, maybe 99% of the time.
 
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AshtenD

First Post
I have had my fair share of play on 4e, 3.X, and PF. I would have to say PF would be superior, though, as said above, the melee are pretty powerful. Its pretty ridiculous when a level 3 Barbarian pumps out like 60 damage in a single blow with Power Attack and a Greatsword with critical. But the convergence and skills (not to mention giving synergies the boot) makes it so much simpler. As a DM, its quite nice to just plop down some information in half the time. I never really liked 4e, it just was so against my nature of DnD, and 3.X is what I was raised on. Honestly, the changes to pathfinder make it really hard to go back to 3.X and if you are a decent DM, or have one, they will make changes to counter act those massive melee players. :D As a good DM should.
 

concerro

Explorer
I have had my fair share of play on 4e, 3.X, and PF. I would have to say PF would be superior, though, as said above, the melee are pretty powerful. Its pretty ridiculous when a level 3 Barbarian pumps out like 60 damage in a single blow with Power Attack and a Greatsword with critical.
How is a level 3 barbarian putting out 60 points of damage?

24 str after rage is 10 points of damage
power attack is 6
Great sword is about 7 so if the DM gives out a lot of ability points the best you can expect is 23.
Maybe on a crit with very good rolls, but that is a corner case.
 

AshtenD

First Post
How is a level 3 barbarian putting out 60 points of damage?

24 str after rage is 10 points of damage
power attack is 6
Great sword is about 7 so if the DM gives out a lot of ability points the best you can expect is 23.
Maybe on a crit with very good rolls, but that is a corner case.

That was the case. Roll 2d6, Half-Ogre (3rd party content) Running 20 Str, naturally, with rage. (12 + 4 (Powerattack) + 7 (Str with rage) +1 (Powerful Blow Rage Tactic) x2 Critical (as I did state) So more like 48. But that is still a ridiculous amount of damage as the guy I was fighting only had 15 hp. :/ Poor guy. I was just throwing that out there and if the stars align correctly, 60 is within reach. All it would take is a potion of bulls strength and maybe a better piece of equipment. I have seen magical items passed out around level 3.
 

Icyshadowlord

First Post
I do not mean to offend by this, AshtenD, but I find your post to be overly subjective when it comes to comparing 3.X and PF. I found no trouble alternating between the two, and even now I actually prefer 3.X games over PF ones. And if I actually had the time and patience, I would start to debate about the game balance issues of the two editions by comparing them. But I am well-aware of the fact that others have done it before me, and have done it better, so I will not bother to touch upon the topic any more than I have now.
 

Diggelsworth

First Post
Hmmm, I'd be a little careful adding the 3.5 splat books to your Pathfinder game. I know they said all 3.5 would work with PF but trust me It gets out of hand fast. Stick with core Pathfinder at first. Get an idea of what PF can dish out. The power level should be there with out adding the 3.5 splat. You can always add that stuff later.
 

AshtenD

First Post
Subjective? Meh, I will admit, maybe. But I was raised on 3.5 and that's what I usually DM in my own games, but recently I've jumped into Pathfinder because I find the skill system much less complicated. This paired with the fact that I usually end up playing with DnD Newbies makes explaining the character sheet much easier. :p But eh, everyone has their own subconscious bias towards a system.

I honestly can easily switch between PF, maybe not conversion wise, but gameplay wise. At least, in my own experience. :p Going between my own PF campaign and Age of Worms.
 

pawsplay

Hero
That was the case. Roll 2d6, Half-Ogre (3rd party content) Running 20 Str, naturally, with rage. (12 + 4 (Powerattack) + 7 (Str with rage) +1 (Powerful Blow Rage Tactic) x2 Critical (as I did state) So more like 48. But that is still a ridiculous amount of damage as the guy I was fighting only had 15 hp. :/ Poor guy. I was just throwing that out there and if the stars align correctly, 60 is within reach. All it would take is a potion of bulls strength and maybe a better piece of equipment. I have seen magical items passed out around level 3.

Compared to 3.5, I'm only seeing +1 damage (for the Tactic), and Power attack is actually more limited in Pathfinder.
 

pawsplay

Hero
I mostly run opposing parties at high level. Prepping high level parties is more difficult in Pathfinder due to all the new capabilities each class has.

That's an unusual playstyle.

You really have to spend time thinking out rage power schemes, fighter feat paths, and the like.

No, I don't. When I design NPCs, I go for simplicity, plus style.

Not sure why the feat list in 3.x gave you problems. It wasn't much different.

I didn't say it gave me problems, I said it took more time. Typically, I had about five books in front of me prepping for a 3.5 game, now I usually have three: the core book, the Bestiary, and maybe one other source I'm converting. Plus, all the new feats are presented in the core feat chains, which makes it really easy to prep NPCs (see above).

I imagine the skill system in 3.x was much more difficult if you went by the RAW. We started going 1 for 1 on class skills very early on. So I didn't notice. I should have mentioned that.

Even then, it wasn't much of a problem... until you wanted to advance a monster who may or may not have spent points on cross-class skills, and whose skills may or may not include an ACP penalty for a shield.

For one, they have weapon training which means they have +4 additional to hit and damage with their best weapons. So you have to plan for that BAB while still allowing the rogue to hit.

A base fighter chance to hit absent stats is +26 at lvl 20 versus including greater weapon focus and weapon training. +22 before.

A base rogue is +16 including weapon focus.

That is a 10 point difference in BAB. Which means the fighters first two attacks hit as well as a rogue. It further marginalizes the rogue's combat capabilities and most +15 BAB classes if you want to make the fight challenging for the fighter.

The extra +4 makes Power Attack very common, which greatly increases damage.

Fighters do not get sneak attack. They rarely have the luxury of sinking most of their ability score bonuses into a single stat (Dex). So, yes, the fighter's first attack is basically an auto-hit in most battles, at high levels... giving them parity with the wizard, the invisible rogue, and the buffed Cleric. Another way to look at would be that using the new Power Attack, their BAB remains the same while their damage goes up. The fighter has always been the prince of melee control, but their damage has tended to lag. That has been remedied. And while I would argue the fighter has always been effective, having his own bonuses creates more of an appearance of being self-sufficient. It also helps the party, by helping melee and ranged numbers be closer to expected ranges for opponents, even when buffs fail or are unavailable.

To me, increasing a fighter's damage to where they can actually do some serious damage to the giant, rather than just tie up the giant's AoOs, is not a radical increase in power, it's just a courtesy to the guy with the flaming two-handed sword who wants to feel good about themselves as they are smacking the bad guys.

For certain Dex builds, the Pathfinder fighter might be decidedly superior, but otherwise I think you are talking about a 25 to 30% increase in damage, even taking into account situation advantages.
 

Having GMed/played games of all 3 (3.x, Pathfinder, Pathfinder Beta, 4e) I'd have to say that if there's things you _hate_ about 3.x, they're probably still there in Pathfinder.

Even James Jacobs said as much:
But, if you loved 3.5, chances are good you'll love PFRPG. If you hated 3.5, there's a good chance that what you hated about 3.5 will still be there in PFRPG, but maybe not.

He also noted:
That said, part of the PF RPG's goal is to remain as close as possible to the baseline of the SRD.

There seems to be an erroneous assumption going around in some circles that the PF RPG's goals are to vastly "improve" 3.5, when in fact its goals are more humble—we just want to keep in print and supported by stores the incarnation of the rules we prefer. We ARE making changes, to be sure, but those changes are mostly inspired by both our and 3.5 players' reactions not only to our public playtest, but to reactions to 3rd edition in general over the past several years.
the final PF RPG game (which is in its final few weeks of editing here at Paizo) will be closer to 3.5 than the beta was.

And that really does sum things up.

It's hard to know what to suggest, because it in part depends on what you love/hate about the system in question. For example, I know that I personally prefer 4E far more for GMing, but prefer 3.x for playing; a primary reason being that I dislike miniatures and lots of bookkeeping. 3.x has a fair amount of bookkeeping itself, but you can avoid some of it depending on the class you run and the GM does have some tricks (although not as many as a 4E one) to cut it down as well.

One of the biggest problems you're going to have is "system mastery". The move from 3.5 to Pathfinder is in my mind much like the move from 3.0 to 3.5. Putting aside any issues of whether or not it was "needed" or "improved" things, you have the fundamental issue of system mastery.

You spent however much time learning the system, getting used to spells and so forth. The change in edition suddenly throws that up in the air. Sure, lots of stuff is similar or unchanged. But you don't know _what_ changed and what stayed the same. This means that if you're the sort of person that tries to run things by the rules as much as possible, you're basically going to be second-guessing yourself and having to double-check everything. This is part of the reason that arguments that pop up about how "easy" stuff is to run (or not) in Pathfinder. Some GMs sweat the details more than others.

Can I use 3.X characters with Pathfinder with no conversion? Or tiny amount of conversion?

Sort of. Pathfinder has changed how hit dice and class (BaB) link together so you'll want to double-check that, check the skills due to changes in the skill points and what skills are what, and double-check the feats to make sure they're actually doing what you think they are. Class abilities have changed as well (casters especially get some more stuff), so if you bring a pre-existing character over you're going to need to add stuff to it in addition to the skill and possibly HD/BaB changes.

Can I use 3.X crunch materials (prestige classes especially) with Pathfinder with little conversion?

About like converting over a regular character. In this particular case though, you're going to have to watch out for the prerequisites and decide how you want to handle them; there's a strong chance you're going to need to figure out how you want to shift the Hit Die/BaB since they're likely to not be aligned the way Pathfinder does them.

Does Pathfinder keep skill points allocated level by level and some synergy bonuses?

As I recall (I haven't played/run Pathfinder/D&D for a while) You no longer gain four times the normal skill points at first level. Instead, every skill that is a class skill and has at least one point in it gets a +3 bonus to it. There is no penalty for cross class skills anymore, just the benefit that is gained by putting one rank into a class skill. No synergy.

I also seem to recall that anyone can track, find a mechanical trap, and disable devices with the skill, only rogues can do magical traps. The fellow that usually plays rogues squawked when this popped up.

Does Pathfinder have any way to make a druid that cast spells a little bit, Turns into goonish forms for battle and gains skill bonuses in certain forms for scouting and sneaking? Are wildshape forms just as complicated, involving math of multiple spread sheets to compute?

I can't speak to this at all, since I've flat out just not had Druids in my games. I personally hate it when someone starts pulling in non-core (as in not the main rulebook but a supplement) books, but there's some sort of Summoner class that's been done; it comes with some funky critter, the Eidolon. You might be able to get _that_ combo to do what you're talking about with the Druid. These days I refuse to buy splats without a genuinely compelling reason, so I've no clue if any of the Pathfinder splat books are any good or not.

Again, whether or not to make the switch really depends on what you're looking for.

Pathfinder: Ignoring any subjective opinions about Pathfinder being "better", it's currently being published and has new stuff being put out for it. If you're willing to do some work, you can use 3.x materials in the Pathfinder system. The amount of work required is going to depend partially on your own tendencies to be exact, as well as the nature of the material you want to convert.

3.x: You've presumeably already got system mastery of this. You'll have a minimum amount of effort to get back in the saddle and a few more years have gone by, so there may be better solutions to some of the problems. You can bring Pathfinder stuff over to 3.x in bits and pieces if you want; even Pathfinder monsters to 3.x shouldn't be too much of an issue although there are differences.

4E: It's also currently getting material published for it. The overall design is much more coherent than most of the 3.x systems, including Pathfinder.
 
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