Recreating the Knock-Down feat...

[Crothian]

Nah. It just means the weapon hurts more. Also, a +2 whip doesn't give you a +2 enhancement bonus to trip attempts, does it? I can't remember for sure, but I don't believe it does.

No, +2 whip does not help with the resisted trip attempt.

 

[kreynolds]

I didn't think it did. I updated the feat description to include "Strength based damage; such as Power Attack".

Any other suggestions?

 

[Crothian]

I didn't think it did. I updated the feat description to include "Strength based damage; such as Power Attack".

Any other suggestions?

I think it's a better feat then the orginal and I can't think of any other other problems.

EDIT: Original being S&F version

 

[kreynolds]

Sweet! Thanks, dude!

 

[reapersaurus]

Let me see if I got this right, kreynolds:

This change to Knockdown is your STR-save mechanic instead of an opposed Trip roll?

____________________________
Completely seperately, if I was to wish for a change to Knockdown, it absolutely positively would have to involve changing the pre-reqs.
The idea that a big lug with a Greatclub should have to have INT 13+, Expertise, & Improved Trip just to be able to clunk someone with a big tree-trunk and Knock them back is completely absurd, mistaken, and lazy rules-wise.

 

[kreynolds]

This change to Knockdown is your STR-save mechanic instead of an opposed Trip roll?

Not really. The knock-down is resolved like a normal trip, but your weapon and strength based damage is what sets the DC. In the case of this feat, the DC replace the roll that your defender needs to beat. In a normal trip, you (the guy trying to trip me) and I both make opposed rolls. I need to exceed or equal your roll to stay on my feat.

With my version of Knock-Down, and you still being the guy trying to knock me off my feet, your weapon damage + strength based damage is what I need to roll against.

And of course, in the opposed roll of a trip, the defender can use his Dexterity if it is higher. That way, it also allows for those that are fast on their feet to "roll with the blow", so to speak, thus stay on their feet.

Make sense?

Completely seperately, if I was to wish for a change to Knockdown, it absolutely positively would have to involve changing the pre-reqs.
The idea that a big lug with a Greatclub should have to have INT 13+, Expertise, & Improved Trip just to be able to clunk someone with a big tree-trunk and Knock them back is completely absurd, mistaken, and lazy rules-wise.

Actually, you make a very good point. The Improved Trip feat really doesn't have a thing to do with my version of Knock-Down, so the prerequisites for my version definately need to change. How about replacing Improved Trip with Power Attack?

Also, I was thinking of raising the minimum damage required to attempt a Knock-Down to 15 points of damage. Anybody think that might be too high?

 

[Someone]

Actually, you make a very good point. The Improved Trip feat really doesn't have a thing to do with my version of Knock-Down, so the prerequisites for my version definately need to change. How about replacing Improved Trip with Power Attack?

Also, I was thinking of raising the minimum damage required to attempt a Knock-Down to 15 points of damage. Anybody think that might be too high?

No. Is easy to dealt 15 points of damage at medium levels, and replacing the prerrequisites for Power Attack will make the feat simply too good IMO. Note that you lose nothing using the feat, the benefit is great (defender prone) is very easy to drop an opponent with this feat (say a strenght of +4 or +5 vs DC 15+, easily more than a 50% for each blow) and most fighter types already buy Power Attack.

Also note that the feat add another die roll for each blow and that slows the game. What about making the knockdown an attack that takes a standard action?

 

[kreynolds]

Also note that the feat add another die roll for each blow and that slows the game.

Yeah, we definately noticed the increased amount of die rolls, and reworked the feat after about six rounds.

I playtested this feat last night in a game I ran, and my group and I decided to change the following...

• Change "Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent with a single attack in melee" to "Whenever you score a critical hit against your opponent with a single attack in melee". Basically, Knock-Down is only available on a critical hit.
• The DC of Knock-Down is set using "DC 10 + weapon damage + strength based damage".
• Knock-Down can only be used on creatures one size category larger than you or smaller. So, if you're human, no knocking down huge creatures.
• Power Attack is still a prerequisite, and the increased damage from Power Attack can increase the knock-down DC.

A couple of other things we were considering, but didn't have time to playtest, was modifiying the DC based upon the type and size of weapon you are using. For example, using a slashing weapon reduces the DC by 4; using a piercing weapon reduces the DC by 8

• Slashing weapons reduce the DC by 3.
• Piercing weapons reduce the DC by 6.
• Bludgeoning weapons do not modify the DC.
• Weapons one size category larger than you increase the DC by 2.
• Weapons of the same size category as you do not modify the DC.
• Weapons one size category smaller than you reduce the DC by 2.

Like I said, we didn't have time to playtest this last set of modifications. We kicked those ideas around based on an NPC wielding a shortsword, who managed to knock-down an Ogre on a critical hit just as easily as another NPC wielding a maul (FRCS). It didn't make sense that a shortsword (small weapon) would be just as effective in this regard as a maul (large weapon).

What about making the knockdown an attack that takes a standard action?

Funny enough, we tried that, but we felt that it limited the use of the feat a little too much. Instead, we went with limiting the feat to critical hits. Seems to have worked really well in this regard. We did, however, recognize the possiblity of there being a real problem with Falchions (crit range 18-20), which is why we started kicking around the last set of modifications. A falchion would be manageable because it gives a +2 bonus to the DC for being large, but also gives a -3 penalty to the DC because it's a slashing weapon.

But, like I said, we haven't been able to playtest this part yet. My biggest worry, however, is inadvertantly reducing the effectiveness of a lance (piercing weapon) while mounted. Under the last set of mods, the lance would receive a net penalty of -4.

Anyway, that's what we worked up so far. Thoughts?

 

[kreynolds]

*bump*

Anybody?

 

[Jasperak]

I like the idea and think I stole it a while ago.

If you are worried about the lance getting shafted (hehehe), just add to the DC when charging, reduce the penalty for piercing weapons, and increase the bonus for size advantage.

Is it me or does it seem stupid that one does not get a bonus to damage when charging?

(Edit: I am the grammar king)