D&D General Redesigning DnD 5e with no Bonus Actions

[SteveC]

And this is why I don't think a 3 action economy improves things or an action + lesser action economy . No matter what action economy gets set up, you're going to have players who want to use ALL of them as often as they can. If they don't, it's like leaving money on the table. Nobody wants to do that. Hence, everyone in combat makes sure to make their multiple attacks in PF2, even if the growing penalty makes it unlikely for the 2nd and even 3rd attacks to hit.

The way things work in Pathfinder, making three attacks is normally not the best option. For those who don't use it, for each attack after the first, you take a -5 penalty (typically, some weapons are a bit better) so it's unlikely you're going to hit with that third attack. Pathfinder also has stuff to do that isn't attacking that's just not in D&D so there typically is stuff to do on your turn.

I'm playing a Rogue at the moment, and I find my turns go pretty quickly and I had to think about that third action since I didn't want to hope for a 20 on the third attack.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Mike Mearls declared that Bonus Actions in 5e were “hot garbage,” apparently he doesn’t use them in his game.

Mike Mearls (@mearls.bsky.social)

Bonus actions are hot garbage that completely fail to fulfill their intended goal. It's OK for me to say this because I was the one that came up with them. I'm not slamming any other designer!

bsky.app

Just as a fun thought experiment: how would you redesign 5e so it didn’t have Bonus Actions?

Edit: updated the link to the direct source
Edit 2: updated again to the blue sky link cause I don’t like X

Have any of the 5e variants (Level Up, Tales of the Valiant, Nimble 5e, etc) done away with Bonus Actions?

Nimble has adopted a 3 action system.

Came here to say that Nimble has done just this. It works really well.
You can check out how it's done here: Nimble 5e Free Core Rules

 

[CreamCloud0]

So... same thing? How is this distinct from bonus actions now?

it wouldn't be, that was the joke.

 

[Li Shenron]

Just as a fun thought experiment: how would you redesign 5e so it didn’t have Bonus Actions?

Actually, it can be very simple: make it so that everything is a regular action.

For instance, "two-weapon attack" itself might be an action. Redesign the benefits and the cost so that the choice between a single or a two weapon attack is not trivial.

Bonus action spells become regular action spells. Redesign their details appropriately to be on par which spells that already required a regular action.

Special abilities that use a bonus action become regular actions, and can either receive a slight compensation or be rewritten as a whole.

Some cases may require more attention, for example the Rogue's Cunning Action. It might be possible to make it a non-action that is always usable (for the Rogue to get the benefits of dash, dodge, disengage) unless the character is already using another special ability; or it could be itself made it a special ability that takes an action and allows attacking or spellcasting as part of it.

Anyway, the point is that bonus actions didn't always exist, so it is certainly possible to have a game that doesn't use them. I think I understand Mearls' frustration. He and the others originally wanted to have some special abilities that would still allow a character to attack in the same turn, for example the Healing Word spell. They could have made Healing Word a regular action spells that somehow included the possibility to also make an attack, but perhaps someone then brought up "what if the character then wants to do even something else than attack?". This is what I call a typical "give them a hand and they take your arm" attitude and if I had been in charge I would have immediately scrapped Healing Word entirely, because of course next thing you're down in a rabbit hole... they went with the Bonus Action mechanics, and then they had to patch it by saying that if the Bonus Action is a spell then the regular action can't be a spell as well otherwise it's too good. But hang on... we already put combat cantrips in the game because some players wanted pew-pew magic at will instead of physical weapons so now we have to make an exception to the exception of the exception and allow cantrips together with bonus action spells. In addition to having all these unnecessary complications, the game is back to encouraging a heavy action economy mentality that is not necessarily bad but maybe it was not intended at the beginning, when for example the movement rules suggested instead a simultaneity-based way of thinking that Mearls may still wish to see in play.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Just as a fun thought experiment: how would you redesign 5e so it didn’t have Bonus Actions?

An approach I have considered but never put work into implementing is to remove Bonus Actions by making them free actions that just happen automatically under certain circumstances.

For examples, see how Vow of Enmity and Sacred Weapon were changed from Bonus Actions in 5.0e to automatically occurring in 5.5e. (or how Divine Smite was inexplicably changed in the opposite direction)

 

[Horwath]

I always kind of liked Pathfinder’s (and if memory serves, Third Edition D&D) attack actions and move actions …

they had Bonus actions. it was just called a Swift action.
same as 4E Minor action.

all the same thing, poorly disguised by different name.

 

[Horwath]

Transform it into some kind of three action economy system.

I'm personally for 6pt action economy.
6 seconds for a round, 6 action points for a round.

Move: 2 pts
Attack: 3 pts
Dual wield: 4pts
Spellcasting 1-4pts(Bonus action spells would fall under 1pt cast)
using potions, drawing items, standing from prone, etc: 1pt

now for special moves:

Dodge: 3pts
Stealth: move for 3pts
Disengage: move for 3pts

Rogue can get 1 pts extra every round.

 

[Marc Radle]

they had Bonus actions. it was just called a Swift action.
same as 4E Minor action.

all the same thing, poorly disguised by different name.

Right!!

I remember now!! It’s been a long time since I’ve played Pathfinder 1E

 

[TiQuinn]

Mike Mearls declared that Bonus Actions in 5e were “hot garbage,” apparently he doesn’t use them in his game.

Mike Mearls (@mearls.bsky.social)

Bonus actions are hot garbage that completely fail to fulfill their intended goal. It's OK for me to say this because I was the one that came up with them. I'm not slamming any other designer!

bsky.app

Just as a fun thought experiment: how would you redesign 5e so it didn’t have Bonus Actions?

Edit: updated the link to the direct source
Edit 2: updated again to the blue sky link cause I don’t like X

I think it’s simple. Get rid of multi-classing.

I rolled my eyes a bit at the idea that players “felt the need to use bonus actions.” Look, if you’re telling me i have an extra move or action that I can take, you can be damned sure I’m going to scour my character sheet to figure out a way to use it if it’s advantageous to use it. There’s no “feeling the need.” It’s self-evident that more actions means you can do more stuff and that’s always to my benefit as a PC.

 

[Minigiant]

Classes should have just upgraded the basic actions just like Martials with Extra Attack.

Spells that are attacks should just have to attacks in them such as the new Swift quiver.

Smites should just be spells that grant attacks and return the slot if you miss.